[Goku]

I agree with Mase. I think abortion should be legal, just not late term abortion cause thats after the child is born. I dont think a woman should be forced to concieve a child if they were raped. They couldn't have protected sex since they were raped. Like Mase said, if someone was getting raped, they wouldn't be able to stop and put a condom on the guy. If they had that time they would run away if they were smart. Why should we get to decide if they want to have a child or not? It's their body, it's their decsion, it's their life. Let them live it the way they want

[Neraphym]

Ouchy... I, I got served...

I'll counter a few of those, in no particular order, just cause I'm bored.

1. I think you're kinda taking this too far. I didn't call every women a nazi femanists, just the one's you said were hypocritical. Its just that that particular group ticks me off a lot. I appologize if you took this the wrong way.

2. Yes, these are my beliefs, and I have every right to try to make people conform to them. Hey, you do, too.

3. Sperm, on its own, is incapable of producing life. Therefore, drinking mountain dew is not killing. If not, every time we masterbate or ovulate, we are committing genocide and murder respectively. Together, they are capable of life, but separate they are nothing. Once again that is going too far.

4. Yes, the trauma it would cuase to the women is horrible, but I believe that harrasment is a lesser crime than murder. Its a shame they'd have to go through it, but they have to do it. A pity really. I wish there was another way. Hopefully there will be in the future.

5. When did I say it was a crime not to reproduce. I can sort of see how you could interprit this as such. I'm saying that life officially begins when the sperm becomes one with the egg. Before this or while its happening is not life, so any birth control stuff at that time isn't bad. I'm also saying don't have unprotected sex. All this could be avoided if people were a whole lot smarter and used protection. I'll find a stat somewhere on how many (percentage) women have abortions cause they or their stupid parten (aimed at guys, too ) were too dam stupid to not use protection. It even says this stuff on condom wrappers.

7. When did I say to make rape legal. Find me anything that could even partially be miscontrued to that point and I'll delete it. I think that was an unfair, unbased attack on me. I'm not gonna attack you with a liability charge or anything, but if you find nothing I'd like an appology.

8. It is you concious choice whether yo want to reprodce (as a male, mind you). (At this point, my "u" key is sort of broken, so if I'm missing a letter, you know what it is) If yo don't, why shold the government make yo? Once again I never mentioned this. I'm now almost positive yo are bending the trth here, just to win a debate. Its not worth or friendship over a silly little debate, so stop making nbased attacks on my views.

9. I'm tired of typing, and that stupid u key is getting on my nerves.

Kjata

This post has been edited by Alpha Weapon: 19 May 2004 - 08:33 PM

[MA-53]

ahh, sorry you're confused on this. I'm bad at making my points clear...

What i was getting at was the consequences of what you are proposing. You did not, and i repeat, did not directly state any of those things, you are correct. I was simply explaining what the most plausible consequences of your options were. This leads to that, and poof! After what you are saying happens, the things i said happen.

I am truthfully sorry that that came out wrong, and i have nothing against you. (in fact, in my book, you've got stuff going for you! e.g. epsilon...).

That was really an error on my part, and in the future i will try my best to make it more clear.. sorry!!

BTW: if at any point i made it seem like i was a female myself, i once again apologize, cuz i'm a guy, and proud of it!!

edit:

[Neraphym]

That turned out well. Anyway, I'm not sure if those would be the exact "things" that would happen, but I'm done here. So sick or argueing today, I've been in like 4 debates. I'm all debated out...

[MA-53]

yes, they can be tiring... (did i spell that right? hmm... tyring? no... tireing? doubtful... tire-ing... whatever...)

[Xemem]

my eye balls hurt...that was alot of reading for just one sitting(that and trying to absorb all that was said). And of course i have an opinion. to bad, I was hoping it would be talked about somewhere, so my compulsivity wouldn't force me to type lol, becuase frankly i am drained from reading every thing(ive been on a few other 2 page + discutions today). I kick my self often for not following a topic of intrest until it is a few pages long...but any ways onto what I think I guess...

#1. it is not un-protected sex that spurs the need for abortions(I say "need" becuase of over population issues). at its core I beleive sex, period, out side of marage is the real crime. if two people are not willing to spend the rest of theyre life together. then they have no buisness having sexual relations, protected or not. becuase the only real protection is not doing it. aside from un-planed pregnancies it is adultry. every one has an intended out there some where and if you dont save your self for the person you will one day come to cherish the most then you are robbing them of a peice of the most intement physical expretion of love and companionship.

#2. In the case of rape...*sigh* ive been working with the homeless, disabled(I have disibilities my self), poor ect. ect. all my life! mostly becuase my mother did and got me into it from a very young age. I have seen countless victims of rape(my very own sister amongst them, though she did not get pregnant{and yes I beat the guy to a bloody pulp}). any way just so every one knows ive been around the whole scene time and again. The only way I could be closer to this and other related subjects is if I raped or was raped(btw I am male so I know I technicaly couldnt be raped...well em...ok there are ways, but you know what I mean here). I have NEVER seen even one case of rape in wich the women didn't put her self in a bad or un-safe position(drugs, or alchohol being involved, or going home with/ or taking home a guy they just met). that is not to say that it is the womens fualt entirely. as she is the one being violated. However keeping bad company is asking for trouble weather you were" just looking to have fun", and "it all went horribely wrong", and "it wasnt suppossed to be this way", doesnt mater, if your in with the crowd your in with what they do.

#3. MORE HARSH PUNISHMENT. men who rape should have it cut off! plain and simple! that coupled with more prison time and steaper restitution, should in theory squalsh most rape. the child shouldnt be punished the rapist should. yeah its not perfect. but the women 90%(from my own experience!) of the time is putting herself in a bad and or un-safe position. and if shed gone to a cafe' with a study group instead of a rave with pot heads, and drunkards it wouldnt have happend!

#4. over half the these rape cases do not just occurr within the adult community. alot of it...heck most of it! Is happening amongst teens. a simple solution...Keep An Eye On Your Kids More Closley! im talking shaparone, freinds numbers, checking in! its not that hard for parents to keep therye kids away from this stuff.

#5 its not about killing future life/current life, or whatever. we do that all the time. everything must partake of a life to sustain itself. what it is about is the termination of a sanctioned being(yes I need I dictionary big deal!), for no good reason. the question is when does it become human. i have possed this question in a format it was possed to me towards my doctor..."whats the dif between weeks? why is 6-8 or what ever the cut off point?". simply the doctor said to me " before a certain point in the devolpment of the fetus, it has no gender, just a node that will either become male or female reproductive organs in the future".
...maybe that is a point to disccuss I dont know. but at the core of it, SEXUAL IMMORALITY is allways to blame!

[Glammeress]

First off, I don't buy into all that "immorality" stuff...I would call it something else, but that's not allowed.

DON'T GET ME WRONG: I am NOT talking about "immorality" in the socially-conservative sense; just in the "socially-hung up" sense.

If your faith/upbringing/personal choice dictates you NOT engage in pre/extramarital sex, that is fine by me. That's all you. But, if this view is based on ignorance, I say; "Off with your head!" LOL j/k

This is undoubtedly a TOUCHY, TOUCHY, TOUCHY subject. One of those topics where you can say almost nothing right. So, I have long decided in situations like this to NEVER try to please anyone, just to state my stance as gently, coherently and concisely as possible--and then leave it alone.

I am avidly pro-choice.
I would never have an abortion, either. I am a mother of two, as most of you know--it's against EVERYTHING in my basest nature to do ANYTHING against...life.

However, girls are raped every day. Babies are conceived every day as a result of this violation. Does the genetic father live with these consequences; realistically? Often times, no.

I believe that sex is a wonderful thing...when BOTH parties consent to it. Sex isn't something anyone has ANY right to take from another. It's given freely of the heart. When someone violates that, that kills. When an innocent child is born of abuse, that kills, too. I know a large portion of women do NOT have abortions for the above reason, but take away the liberties of one, take away the liberties of all, I always say...

When you crush and pilliage the rights, the BASIC human rights of another, you might as well just kill them, too.

What would you rather do? Resent a girl for aborting her child, or be the murderer of her freedom?

Just something to think about.

[Xemem]

Immorality is in our nature. if you beleive in it or not. It doesn't mater, becuase it is present. sin, in the bible(you need a "strongs biblical conqordance" to verify this) is defined litteraly as "missing the mark"...it is not nessasarily doing a bad deed as it is being in a state of less then perfect. In its truest sence, any thing short of perfection is sin...I may have given you the idea that im some sort of wanna be preacher. While I am an amature theologin, I am not religous. I find the subject of human, god/goddess, and our different ways to him/her interesting. personaly I believe that we invent god/goodess in all theyre different forms and functions as a way to validate our own existance. People seek a higher power for meaning to life and a higher standard. If the way of one prevents one from following a path of evil. then maybe im in agreement with you in some way, Glammeress... I think that way that we may agree on some level is saying(correct me if im wrong)" if it keeps you happy, well, and out of trouble, then more power to you". I think that immorality was to strong of a word to be using on my part. different cultures have different standards for what is socialy and moraly exeptable. some thing I want to make clear, is that I was not trying to say that abortion is immoral, but rather the events that lead to the moment when a women decides weather or not to get an abortion are the ones that should be percecuted. a womens choice? I dont know...her body. so she should decide. but on the other hand a life that is not hers but its own. I belive that life its own becuase I belive that no person can own any other life but theyre own. so is it murder? I cant decide for myself, and none should be given the authority to decide for others. becuase of that I tried to stress the point in my previous post that, if not for the things that lead upm to abortion it would not be an issue. I couldnt find the answer I was looking for in the case of weather abortionn is rite or not. I just think maybe there is not a completely rite or wrong answer. And I think that is becuase the probleme is some where else. there has to be something wrong some where or there wouldnt be a probleme to solve. I also want to make it clear here(something I obviusly didnt do in my previous post), that I think every one has been trying to plavce the blame squarely on the mans shoulders. It doesnt all belong there. in many cases the teen girl disobeys. she gos out after shes supposed to, she gos to the party instead of going home. she drink and or does drugs instead of saying no. she hangs out with the wrong kind of people. and after all the wrong choices are made she losses the ability to choice... its a kind of carma I think. you do the things you know you shouldnt often enough. you take advantage of the ability to choose, by making porr choices. and the universe up and decides to play a cosmic joke on you by putting you in a position where you dont have a choice, becuase youve abused the privilage of chpoice far to often. im not saying the guy isnt wrong either becuase he is. the same set of surcumstances lead them both to a situation in wich they both pay, for not respecting the balance of things. the guy is branded with the shame(and sadly not always punished), but on at least some levelm, one can only hope he is tormented inside. and the women pays with the resualt I guess. both will never be the same and the universe balances out again even though theyre worlds seem to fall apart. my point dont mess with nature....and who knows if left to live the child may grow to be a great leader and do many good things that balance out the evils that brought him/her into the world.

[Glammeress]

Wow, esron. Just, wow.

If anyone has anything to say about that post, the one thing we can all agree on is it's a thought out one. You've done your homework, know what you're talking about--and I commend that alone.

I studied the Bible (Concordance, a little Greek and Hebrew, the whole nine yards) for YEARS upon YEARS. *lmao* You seem to have a good handle on Christian theology.

Ironically, this knowledge I gained in study is what ultimately led me away from Judeo-Christianity as a whole. I do however, still carry great respect for it's true adherents.

If you will call me anything (religious,) call me Pagan.
I believe in the power of choice and all the beauty and horror that entails.

Bravo on a well-researched, well-written post!

[Miotu]

Ugh. I find this whole topic quite annoying. In fact, a pro-life group felt the need to hold a rally on my school's grounds, not just with their fog horns and pamplets, but also with the biggest poster boards I have ever seen depicting dead fetuses, severed baby heads, and bloody hands. Very appetizing, especially for all the middle school students who were on their way home via buses passing directly by the protest.


I am not even sure if this is legal, especially if the pictures involve subjective dialogue on school grounds.

[Glammeress]

[Crescens]

[Glammeress]

You can hate me then, good for you. You don't know me. It's so silly I can't even get mad at you for it.

Hate those who disagree with you, Crescens? WOW. That's mature...

And if I'm a hippy? What's is this, 1968??

And in closing; if you bring so-called "hate" into the equation, you're taking a debate into an argument. I didn't think you were into that.

This post has been edited by Glammeress: 05 May 2004 - 09:27 PM

[Goku]

Hmmm I actually now found something else about this. Yet it is against my opinion. I'm still gonna say it though.

What if in this case the man wanted to have another child. The woman in the relationship doesn't. Sould it just be the woman's desision? I can see that it is the woman's body and she should get to decide but what I sorta don't think it should be up to only the woman to decide. But yes, abortion should still be legal.

[Glammeress]