[Xemem]

my mother was also adopted...but her birth mother gave her up becuase of...well, lets just say my biological grandfather is a very...evil man, and I have not used the word "evil" in to strong of a sence. in fact there should be a stronger word for the things hes done. any way enough about that. I get the idea of this new scenerio presented by sh1zza. but determining weather or not it is good to have another child or even a first is based not only on personal wants, but weather or not it is financialy the best time. theres far more factors to consider even beyond that. but it is never the wrong time for a marrige consuler. ive found through research that marriges that are not in danger can benifit from conseling...oh and glammeress, thnx for the compliment. I supose I do have a fairly good grasp of bible based religions. but I my self do lean more to pagan ways. im not an active practitioner of any crafts, however I have friends who are. mostly closet witch's seing as how there is still alot of fear and prejudice instilled in people by the near mention of a practitioner being present(wich is maybe why im a spectator in this arena). the one thing if any about paganism(and I realize this-neo paganism/paganism- doesnt nessesarily mean the practice of the wicca/witch-craft) that I dont agree with is the use of the pentacle/pentagram #1. it has been given to many bad associations do to satanists using it(inverted with a dot, much like they use the cross)#2. it origanaly belonged to the pathagorians(started by pathagoras) in ancient greece as thier symbol for thier secret club of mathmatics, logical thinking, music, and (rumors of) magic. therefore it is a barrowed symbol.#3. I feel it does not accurately depict the quadrants, and or elements/forces asociated with the points as the south quadrant lies between two points, and is not aligned with one like the rest.... I have designed a new symbol that would be representitive of directions, elements, and forces with far more accuracy: the octacle/octagram. it is based on it's name-sakes eight sided shape. it is of course an eight pointed star that starting at the top tip working clockwise represents north/ spirit, north-east/water, east/order, south-east/air, south/death(in-animacy), south-west/ fire, west/chaos, north-west/earth, and then back to the north/spirit(life)...so all together the star shows, chaos and order to the east and west, life and death to the north and south, and the four elements to the cross sections, and all represented by a point. the only other people who use this to the best of my knowledge is people with compasses,maps,and globes. givibing it a feel of guidance, a trusted shape. that is evedent when I try to explain the pentagram to people, and then the octagram. its in there reactions, they get the octagram becuase it is familiar as a helpfull object when all theyv ever heard about the pentagram is bad things. what are your thoughts glameress?(maybe you should pm it cuase its getting a little bit off topic)...

ive edited this to add that the star also work for seasonal quadrant/cross quadrant assignment, and the sabats....its pretty much all purpose in my opinion, where I feel the pentagram/pentacle is lacking.

[Glammeress]

esron, WOW.

I hadn't checked this topic in a while, but this is awesomeness!

I would LOVE to talk more about these thing--you know so much, that would make for some great discussion!

I agree somewhat about the pentacle. I don't really care about how people take it, though. It has plenty of negative connotations associated with it, but mainstream fears have never slowed me down any. Well...that's not altogether true. I walked away from Paganism a couple of times because of fear of discrimination, which sucked on my part, but I was young. That's my only defense for turning my back on something that made sense to me. I had never heard of the Pathagorians thing, wow! *hehe* The pentacle had always been sensible to me because of the Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Spirit thing. I agree though, it's sorta like a thought that never got quite finished...

I don't hate Christianity. I love many Christians, in fact. What I hate is what ignorant people have done to the faith. The Bible is a beautiful piece of literature. I have enjoyed reading it for years. I would have to say I lean more toward Pagan thought, but I'm currently unattached to any given creed/dogma. I'm a free-floater. *lol* I think I will know when/if the time is ever right to give my heart to a religion, but I'm not holding my breath. Religion isn't what's important to me. What *is* important to me is connecting with what I perceive to be "divine." I acknowledge that can be many things to many people, I have no right to dictate what's real or not. Reality, as some of us know, it's QUITE subjective and even changeable. This is why I could never be a traditional monotheist, I s'ppose. And it's also why I believe in fate and magic.

And, I agree, this is a bit off topic.

And, esron, for whatever happened to your family...my heart breaks. I hope you have found comfort somewhere...*hug*

[Atilla]

anyone who has read the Da Vinci Code will understand that the pentacle was not meant to represent satanism/paganism. it was originally a symbol of fertility. people who wear it as a satanist icon have no idea of the history behind it, and therefore are doing it because they think it is cool.

EDIT: well, the book depicts it as relating to women and fertility.

This post has been edited by atilla123: 16 May 2004 - 09:54 PM

[Xemem]

Da Vinc code! lol that book is the poster child for over analysis lmao. Some people like to read into things way to much. ...oh and hey glammeress, i'll go ahead and pm you some more on what were are disscusing as it must be a pain to keep re-visiting what seems to be a now, all but dead topic, and I think we also burnt the bridge of being off topic alonnngg time ago lol. oh and I had a question for you that ill include in the pm.

[Ferret Overlord]

[asyluman]

So I'm walking down the street, and what do I see? A car. With a bumper sticker. The sticker read: "God is pro life." Lemme repeat that: "GOD is pro life." Excuse me, miss, it's fine to have your own opinions and all, but our GOD does not favor any cause. That's like saying Jesus likes you on the chunky side. Case Closed.

[Ferret Overlord]

God is Pro Life?!?!?!
WTF is that woman thinking?!
God, in the first place, creates life!
Second, god gave humans free will, so he can't favor anyone!

*edited for content*

This post has been edited by Killerconvic: 21 May 2004 - 01:46 AM

[Xemem]

Humans have always taken it apon them selves to decide what gods'/the gods/goddess(s), will is. I think the point that people have a rite to there own opinion, but not to decide what any higher beings' will is has been well made( it was done a bit on the angry side, but still a good point)...I believe that when people do not think there view is strong enough they asign there point of view to what ever higher power they worship. That way they can absolve them selves from all accountability if it turns out to be wrong, saying that there god or whatever was simpely miss-understood. it is a shield that the weak hide behind so that they dont stand alone. Having faith in some thing is good in my opinion. However you take it to far when you try to make it seem like what ever you say or do comes directly from above- when you make it seem like it is not your will, but the will of what ever powers that be- that is just plain dangerous, especialy when it takes form in the mob mentality. when ever thing you say is the words and will of god or whatever, and everything that any one else says that is even remotely in dis-agreement with you is "the devil" or "evil talking"...well it becomes just plain fanaticism. Religion is fine. It is when people go twisting it to suit there own goals that it get out of line...I have a feeling that this whole topic will probably be closed soon lol. I dont mean to come off sounding like an avid atheist, but I think for this debate...god, and gods supossed will(wich depends on who you talk to) doesnt belong in this debate. I mean we seem to only be revistibng the actual topic here just enough to keep it going. really all ive seen for a while is every one(including my self and I opolagize), talking around the actual subject in order to voice opinions that are definately off topic... any ways, related to what religion says about abortion...well what does it say? I am sure dogmas differ amongst different cultures, on the subject of abortion, rape, and when death is murder. but how do you tie it all together? I dont think you can. One would be hard pressed to find five significant things that any 3 religions are in total agreement on. so again maybe it all comes down to the individual. becuase for this you can not really count on god to solve it for you, or your religion. becuase it can only make up your mind, not the worlds. it is a matter of personal opinion, based on the facts, that should hold wait here. I know that I have strayed from that regarding the topic( again I apologize). And I know that others have too becuase saying the word abortion once or twice doesnt make it about abortion....I am boiled out on this topic and pretty much done here. I will try to resist returning to this topic lol. the fact is that I think every one has said everything that neeeded to be said just about. and I dont think that any one is going to concreetly make up any one elses mind. I say that now people are armed with thew facts and can make up there own mind, and thats all any debate should strive to accomplish.

[Mrb1]

After all that reading I have formulated an opinion. I think that abortion should be left entirly up to the women. They are the ones that hypotheticly got raped, had unprotected sex etc.

[Ferret Overlord]

I've come to the simple concluson that all people are evil. Don't argue with me, they are. There are so many people that kill for no reason, then deny doing anything wrong, that this conclusion can't help but sound correct. Even worse are the people that kill with out reason, then admit to doing it (namely, terrorists). Why the heck do they do that?! Did you know the person who founded the Muslim religion was insane? Now half the middle east is following his mentally crazed idea of killing people and going to heaven! Okay... I'm getting way off topic here...
People are jerks because they think they can make other peoples futures by
a: rape, B: kidnapping, and C:Theft. I'm not gonna lie, I have shop lifted once, but I'm talking fraud, bank robbery, and car-jacking.
It's just wrong. If people aren't allowed to get rid of a child they didn't want, then our nation is a cruel place to live...

[Killerconvic]

So what about people who don't do things like that? You are going to blindly label them (me) too?

[Ferret Overlord]

The media. My only response. The media tells us things like how many people died in Iraq, or oil prices have gone up. (Yes I'm restating some facts I had in another debate) They never say things like maybe, scientist have come up with a cure for cancer or AIDS. That's all you hear about ; the bad things. I'm not going to label people individualy, actually I'm not labelling them at all. I'm simply saying that the world in general is evil.

[Killerconvic]

[JCReinke]

God would be pro-life,because he makes life so oviously he values it.

I believe that abortion is wrong and here's why:
1. don't blame the child for the mother's actions
2. if the mother doesn't want the child there are people that will take care of that child.
3. if the mother does have an abortion"they(abortions) are done without pre or post surgical care on an assymbly line basis, for cash, and often by doctors with mimimal training,unsophisticated equitment, and inadequetly trained personel"*
so the doctors don't know what they are doing, and they use outdated technology.
4. "occurence of genital tract infection following elective abortion is a well known complication...rates up to 5.2% for first trimester abortions, and up to 18.5% in midtrimester"* so the woman could get a genital tract infection.
5. "Infection in the womb and tubes can cause permanent damage" "The typical infection involving these organ is pelvic inflamatory disease(PID)"*
6. "ambiotic fluid embolism has emerged as a leading cause of death from legally induced abortion" "And has an 80% mortality rate"*
7. "complications include uterine rupture,cervical laceration,sepsis,mild to severe Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation,hemorrhage,sudden death,convultions,cardio-respiratory arrest,vomiting and aspiration,stroke,acute kidney failure amniotic fluid embolus, and blood clots to the lung."
8."sterility,tubal pregnacies,"
9.And as to the teens not being able to carry through the pregnancy"teenage mothers have no more risks during pregnacy and labor, and their babies fare just as well as their more mature sisters' babies"
10.as for mental reasons" there are no unequivical psychiatric indications for abortion"
11. they suffer from Post Abortion Syndrom PAS
So here are 11 reason why i believe abortion is wrong. I can bring up more if some one want more.
All my reasons are supported by Abortion:Questions and Answers by Dr. and Mrs. J.C. Willke.

[serpharimon]

Eh, since the topic was dead, and revived, I might as well put in my views also.

My opinion is that abortions should be legal if someone is raped, and they don't want the child (Or put it up for adoption). Abortion should be illegal if some unsmart woman (Or a man, so I don't sound chauvinistic) has unsafe sex. "If they're dumb enough to do it, they should be punished for it.". If anyone has anything to say against/with me, please post their opinion.