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Update To Everything - Short "future Of" Post
#46
Killerconvic 
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:42 PM
| QUOTE (obiwan22 @ Jul 1 2004, 01:40 PM) | ||
How do we lead the forums and stop conflicts without being called "partial mods" and "power abusers." |
A name is a name. Who cares, as long as the job is done?
| QUOTE |
Most of the time people moderators suggests banishments, not new moderators.. |
I suggested quite a few moderators, in fact (including Final). SJ and Goto agreed, and whenever we had the chance, we tried to relay the message to C'sp.
Sam's gay
MultiQuote
#47
Amateur123
- At least I'm not a newbie anymore... ;)
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:46 PM
Wow. Interesting posts.
What I Think:
1. SeeD is definetely not a democracy. A democracy gives people the power to choose their leader. SeeD does not.
2. SeeD is neither a dictatorship. A dictatorship is when the leader has complete control over everything. Seed is a type where the leader tries to cooperate with its members. However, if Seed did not have a leader, and we voted for leaders, there would be easily quite a bit of quarreling and conspiracies.
3. There should be a council, just to make sure the leader does not go power-crazy. If the leader wanted to go for something, the council would have to agree by majority to go with the leader or not. The council should consist of a odd number of people, and these people should be voted on by the active members of this clan, or in another way, by the previous members of the council (that can not vote for themselves). The first council could just be a group of Smods and it would be renewed every month of so. A person could get reelected again and again. A good number of people would be 9 or 7.
4. My last opinion, which has almost nothing to do with this topic, is that people should clear up really old pinned topics, and the member list.
Hmm...very interesting this is.
What I Think:
1. SeeD is definetely not a democracy. A democracy gives people the power to choose their leader. SeeD does not.
2. SeeD is neither a dictatorship. A dictatorship is when the leader has complete control over everything. Seed is a type where the leader tries to cooperate with its members. However, if Seed did not have a leader, and we voted for leaders, there would be easily quite a bit of quarreling and conspiracies.
3. There should be a council, just to make sure the leader does not go power-crazy. If the leader wanted to go for something, the council would have to agree by majority to go with the leader or not. The council should consist of a odd number of people, and these people should be voted on by the active members of this clan, or in another way, by the previous members of the council (that can not vote for themselves). The first council could just be a group of Smods and it would be renewed every month of so. A person could get reelected again and again. A good number of people would be 9 or 7.
4. My last opinion, which has almost nothing to do with this topic, is that people should clear up really old pinned topics, and the member list.
Hmm...very interesting this is.
Trying to stay alive in this community and in Runescape...
F2P is the way I flow.
800+ skill total... Yay.
F2P is the way I flow.
800+ skill total... Yay.
#48
obiwan22
- Oota goota Solo?
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:48 PM
| QUOTE (obiwan22 @ Jul 1 2004 @ 01:40 PM) | ||||
A name is a name. Who cares, as long as the job is done? |
Meh, then they go to the Mod Appeal Board and make it a bigger fuss than it is.
| QUOTE (Killerconvic Posted on Jul 1 2004 @ 12:42 PM) |
I suggested quite a few moderators, in fact (including Final). SJ and Goto agreed, and whenever we had the chance, we tried to relay the message to C'sp. |
Well, there are a lot more banishment topics in the Mod Board than there are suggestions for new mod topics.
Oh, and for the council idea, I think it should definatly not be all (s)mods, which will simply promote the whole "members have no power" idea. Perhaps a council of nine, 3 Smod's, 3 Mods, and 3 members, all elected by each group. Mods elect the 3 mods on the council, members elect the 3 members on the council, and the mods elect the 3 smods on the council.
#49
Killerconvic
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:50 PM
| QUOTE (obiwan22 @ Jul 1 2004, 01:48 PM) | ||||||
Meh, then they go to the Mod Appeal Board and make it a bigger fuss than it is. |
And then the thread gets closed because stupid members have to flame..
| QUOTE | ||
Well, there are a lot more banishment topics in the Mod Board than there are suggestions for new mod topics. |
Because moderator suggestions are done via IM or PM.
Sam's gay
#50
Baseballl
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:55 PM
Cspace should be the leader (and not have anyone elected) because he pays the bills on the server/site.
What people seem to forget is that when Cspace isn't on, the Elite Generals lead the clan. We instantly get called power abusers once we try to make decisions to help the clan and then people get hurt.
I'm almost fed up with the fighting around here. Mods can't even be mature enough, Bespetna steals my avatar and won't remove it (so I will remove it myself), and people just don't care about others here.
What people seem to forget is that when Cspace isn't on, the Elite Generals lead the clan. We instantly get called power abusers once we try to make decisions to help the clan and then people get hurt.
I'm almost fed up with the fighting around here. Mods can't even be mature enough, Bespetna steals my avatar and won't remove it (so I will remove it myself), and people just don't care about others here.
Alex
#51
obiwan22
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:56 PM
| QUOTE (Killerconvic @ Jul 1 2004, 12:50 PM) | ||||||||
And then the thread gets closed because stupid members have to flame.. |
So, we aren't leading the forums if ultimately members start flaming, casuing more conflicts.
Edit: Just a note, I am not fighting with Killer, I'm simply debating and seeing his point of view.
#52
Amateur123
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:59 PM
| QUOTE |
| Oh, and for the council idea, I think it should definatly not be all (s)mods, which will simply promote the whole "members have no power" idea. Perhaps a council of nine, 3 Smod's, 3 Mods, and 3 members, all elected by each group. Mods elect the 3 mods on the council, members elect the 3 members on the council, and the mods elect the 3 smods on the council. |
I meant that at first it could be the mods, and then after the first month, we could choose. But your idea's good too, except maybe the members could choose the three members, the members choose the 3 mods, and the mods choose the 3 smods.
Trying to stay alive in this community and in Runescape...
F2P is the way I flow.
800+ skill total... Yay.
F2P is the way I flow.
800+ skill total... Yay.
#55
Killerconvic
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 06:46 PM
| QUOTE (vietbreaker @ Jul 1 2004, 02:35 PM) | ||
Now thats some bull because you're probably the one who flames the most. |
No, not really. When I made a thread because of SS3 abusing powers (was resolved between him and I), many other members jumped in. Style flames everybody (thinking he 'r teh bestz0rs at teh flamnin!!11!') [See 'Sory Plz Forgive me', 'It's Been A While.. ']. Quite often, Serph tries to flame Cres and/or I (see 'Bully'). Glameress and Mase Windu flamed each other in 'Swearing'].
Style and Serph flame people all the time. I never jump into a conflict, like they do. If I flame someone, it is due to them flaming me, not if they flame someone else.
Sam's gay
#56
ticktockclok
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 07:18 PM
STOP FIGHTING! YOU'D THINK ALL THE MODS HERE WOULD HAVE SOME SENSE!
Look. This cannot be a democracy, unless every member here wants to chip in and pay some money for the boards. No? Didn't think so. Cspace pays for all this with his own hard-earned cash. Also, mods are not power-hungry. I mean, how exactly are you supposed to gain power on an online forum? Mods were chosen for their conduct, or for being one of the first people to post here. Mainly conduct.
A council. It's been suggested a few times, and seems popular, so why don't we try to work on it instead of fighting? It's a good idea, with its pros and cons. A pro that I can think of is that it will help solve problems. Con? It's probably gonna be all mods.
We should wait for Cspace to come back, because as he stated before, he has that NASA thing to be working on, which I think is tons more important that SeeD. No offense to people who don't think that.
So basically, stop the fighting, and start the working.
This post has been edited by ticktockclok: 01 July 2004 - 07:18 PM
And now we have the quote of the day, from greenl2l: PLONGED!!!
#57
MA-53
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 10:19 PM
| QUOTE |
| 3. There should be a council, just to make sure the leader does not go power-crazy. If the leader wanted to go for something, the council would have to agree by majority to go with the leader or not. The council should consist of a odd number of people, and these people should be voted on by the active members of this clan, or in another way, by the previous members of the council (that can not vote for themselves). The first council could just be a group of Smods and it would be renewed every month of so. A person could get reelected again and again. A good number of people would be 9 or 7. |
^ that right there, is being power-crazy.
Listen up people. Like it or not, Cspace is the supreme last word on things. This is HIS site, it takes HIS bandwith, HE pays for HIS forums, and you people can't go changing and/or removing his power completely.
If cspace doesn't have complete and utter control over these forums, it becomes hectic, and all we're doing is taking money out of his pocket in order to fund people who don't like his ideas.
What you need to realize is that Cspace does try and give people what they want, but we can't take advantage of him. If you don't like something in seeD, talk to him about it. Maybe it will change. If it doesn't, too bad, it's not your call, unless you are paying for this piece of the internet.
Cspace CAN intervene and change anything he wants, at any point in time. Realize that he is being kind and generous by letting us have a little fun. These are his forums, you can't just say "I don't like what this guy is doing, so lets kick him out of his own property!"
You even suggesting this, is being selfish, conceited, and you are trying to have things your way. I'd suggest that if you want things your way, get some forums. That's what I did (*cough www.holyspoon.us/forum cough*). And there, I get to do whatever I feel like, because being there is a privilege, not a right.
on a lighter note, I'd like to say this:
"oh joy, another sentimental announcement from cspace telling us about stuff that's supposed to have happened months ago."
#58
Cspace
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 01:09 AM
I can really see how everyone would say that this could be a dictatorship, but really it is over confusion regarding how we were intended to be set up. The following are the ranks, as stated on the rank page on SeeD:
| QUOTE |
| Head Administrators- Currently Cspace and Nova Dreamer/ Rylkan/ Ten No Getsu (one person) - The Head Administrators organize SeeD and watch over the actions of others in leadership positions. At any time they can directly make or influence decisions in all aspects of the clan, though they aim toward letting the clan lead itself if possible since that is the only way that its needs can truly be met. |
In other words, the administrators are the webmasters and general directors of operations. Others in their positions can conduct the clan within the bounds of their power, and often their bounds are very broad. The administrators can take action if another leader is causing trouble, or can take control in certain situations if necessary. An example is the Rebel situation which has been going on for a while. With the agreement of other Gunbladers and leaders on a course of action we took action on our own and ended the conflict so SeeD's normal operations could continue. Now that it is over we do not have this control and everything can go back to the way it was if everyone allows it to do so (even in the democracy of the U.S. the president can do this to an extent for a certain amount of time, but I don't wish to compare a gaming clan to a government).
Yes, over $900 per year goes into the site, but I don't consider that to be a reason for leadership. As administrator I try to just take the role of webmaster unless otherwise necessary, and in order to conduct the site it requires direct input from everyone so it can be enjoyable to our members. When only complaints exist we must take action on our own, but if a couse of action is provided by the clan we prioritize it unless it is not possible or will hurt the progress of SeeD. We have even backed up, reworked, and even removed aspects after implementation from feedback from the members. We provide the vehicle, but everyone has to steer it otherwise it will just move on its own.
Also, Big, I don't know to what you are referring. You mentioned recommendations for banishments and reported situations, and the actual suggestions you sent me were considered and implemented if possible (such as your chat commands).
| QUOTE |
| Director of Operations in Runescape- Currently Original Max - The Director of Operations in Runescape basically leads the clan in the game. He can make decisions involving actions taken against enemies, how events are conducted, and basically anything else involving the game itself. He can also make decisions about how the clan is conducted in general, though must first check with the Head Administrators. |
He can lead SeeD just about completely if he wishes to do so. I would not stop him unless he makes an unlikely turn into a brick wall (which OM would never do
). His position was given to him to direct the clan specifically, while the administrators concentrate on the site, our features, keeping members interested, and watching over what happens so nothing catastrophic takes place.| QUOTE |
| Elite Generals- Currently Original Max, Masterstuff, Superchao, and Baseballl - Elite Generals can lead the clan while the Administrators and the Director of Operations in Runescape are not online. |
They can just about lead the clan with the exception of directly and single-handedly changing our policies.
| QUOTE |
| Generals- Generals can lead the clan while Nova Dreamer, the Elite Generals, or myself aren't on, but they're limited since they cannot declare war or initiate any battles without permission from higher up. |
Does not need further explanation.
We also have Garden leadership (Commanders and Headmasters, as well as Garden-appointed positions) who can lead sections of SeeD directly within limits. Mercenary Group leadership is self-appointed and allows everyone to take a part in clan policies regarding alliances and war. "SeeD In Other Games" allows members to open up entirely new possibilities for everything if desired. Events are completely in the hands of the members. We also have specific positions such as Head of Conflict Resolution and Head Event Coordinator, appointed to certain members due to their strengths and contributions to SeeD.
Then there are moderators who conduct the community. Moderators cannot single-handedly make any changes to SeeD, the position of "Moderator" is only one relating to our community. They cannot be appointed by members for their positions are very much like that of webmasters (it is not "leadership" or a popularity contest, they are like administrators handling our rules and making sure that the forums remain the basis for a worthwhile community). They enforce what can and cannot be placed on the site (the forums) as well as keep things going so our community is always a fun, interesting, and friendly place to be. They do not enforce anything in SeeD unless they have other positions, but they do handle conflicts when they appear on the forums.
Yes, situations do occur in the mod forum, but that is due to how we try to set things up. A select few mods would be no good for the community as a whole. They could be able to handle certain situations in set ways, but they cannot be flexible and would be considered superior and relatively one-sided. There are many groups and opinions in SeeD. In any community there are unofficial groups of friends, and every single member has a different opinion on something. With the moderators we try to have at least one from each group and general opinion. Unofficially they can represent their opinion on the forums. There are some who are for strict guidelines, some who specialize in different areas (such as specific forums), some who are more for the entertainment of SeeD (Insanity Board, certain events, etc.), and everything else. We try to be sure that every member who has been here at least a little bit has a friend who is a moderator. That moderator, their Commander, their Headmaster, SeeD Support, their friends, the "official" upper ranks, and anyone else can help make things happen and do something about problems that come up. You just have to make your ideas known, and understand that just stating a problem will not get us anywhere. For example, anyone can complain about gas prices, but unless someone thinks of a solution nothing would be done.
From these differences, the mod board can sometimes get a little hairy. Hey, that's okay, I would expect arguments to pop up in there, but generally they don't spill out onto the board because solutions can be discussed... even through the periodical chaos in certain threads there. I don't post much there because it is the moderator's domain, and unless something goes too far they should be able to conduct their positions on their own. It is much better that the moderators argue over a situation and come up with a solution than if the moderators come here and start unnecessary chaos and make a good solution impossible - which almost never happens.
**************************************************
On another note, no clan should be compared to a country's government... Democracy, communism, dictatorships, etc. None work for a clan, they are either too complicated or too one-sided. Trust me, the more complicated a system is the worse things will be. Dictatorships fall apart (as would pure oligarchies) because no one wants to take orders. Communism cannot be a foundation for a clan because either it would turn into purely a community (this has happened and the clan dissolves) or it will become an oligarchy. Democracy is great, but it is just too complicated for a gaming clan's foundation. It leads to conflicting branches, general confusion (the "what do we do next" or "this is too much effort" comments), and a perpetual popularity contest. A democratic government consists of many leaders in different branches who (at least should) have had extensive experience and education in how the government works. In a gaming clan this is not possible, and since not a lot is often considered to be at stake many just vote for their friends (which is perfectly fine in terms of who we are, but cannot work for an established hierarchy).
The council idea is a great idea, but it is really an unnecessary step in making ideas. If we had thousands of members this is a step toward a representative democracy (that if we attain these numbers would be good), however we don't have so many that a popular vote cannot work. Every single time a change is being made (unless minor site updates or required in a high-maintenance time) I post a poll. Many times more have voted "no", so the ideas were not implemented. Other times many voted "yes", and this led to changes which benefitted the majority of the clan. When a poll is posted it is always considered a priority, otherwise why would it be posted? Also, suggestions to improve ideas are often posted and implemented with the polls, and we encourage this.
The power of the members does not just come from suggestions like these or votes however. Many groups and features within SeeD are created directly by the members. Some examples are the Innovators, Mediators, certain forums (like Debate), specialist groups (which will be updated, we were just waiting for RS2 and for the gist of our activities to become apparent in RSC and RS2), and other ideas. They are proposed to a leader and implemented if possible, sometimes being led by the member who thought of the idea. These are obviously suggestions of a sort, but they are not to solve a problem but are to improve the clan. If you suggest something like this and have been in SeeD a while, don't be surprised if it is accepted without hesitation; a focus is to allow members to organize things how they want, and there is no better way than allowing them to have leadership in an area and make changes directly. Ideas which change how we function take time and often require a majority vote, however additions which will not hurt anything are almost always accepted if brought to a leader's attention. Unless there is a reason to say "no" to an idea, we will not turn down what the members want.
Many believe that they cannot get anything to change on their own, but it often just takes a PM. A few months ago a number of factors prevented me from answering every PM, however I am now either replying or discussing the PMs on AIM. Every query should not be sent to me though, we do have other ranks for a reason. They can make decisions, and specifically OM and the Elite Generals can get ideas going; unless it is an idea changing how we function, they can implement additions on their own without my direct consent. I can step in if the idea will hurt something, but that is only if required for something else we are doing.
Regarding councils, again, this is only required if we wish to change the authority in the clan from the popular vote to the vote of the groups. Basically, would you want to state your opinion directly, or do you want to influence someone else to vote in your favor? Councils can backfire, no one is completely unbiased and why do the members need to pursuade certain members to vote in their favor? Unlike a representative democracy we are able to allow members to be themselves and have say on their own. Instead of creating the middle-step that complicates and slows the approval of ideas, we are capable of allowing everyone to have their own word. We do not need to complicate things, otherwise it may make members not want to propose ideas because they will take forever to be approved. This can also lead to corruption, such as "would you turn on a friend?" deals with those in the council. In the ideal situations it could work, but these ideal situations are almost impossible to attain in a clan, and even if they are attained we are just making the process longer and more complicated to accomplish the same outcome that a popular vote can achieve. This can be established if a popular vote becomes tedious somehow, but in our circumstances it will require a split of some sort in organization where both are represented as wholes (that councils would be necessary).
**************************************************
As was mentioned previously, an emulated government is almost impossible to be successful in a clan. In order to be successful many aspects must be taken and simplified from many systems to allow for the maximum efficiency and the maximum enjoyment of the community.
We are most similar to a feudal system flipped where the entire basis is on the members. Yes, there is a hierarchy, but it is only to improve efficiency and provide for the members. The leaders have nothing to gain in reality, but we are able to provide a stable system where the clan can direct itself.
Transformational leadership: A system where the leaders enable a group to lead itself and rise itself up to higher standings. Leaders would lead from behind and just manage the group and let it direct itself, unless otherwise required in the given situation (such as the past couple months). A group that can conduct itself without leadership (in a hypothetical situation of course, we will not abandon SeeD) is the most efficient system which can be created, and it is up to the leaders and members to try to attain this. As a group becomes larger this becomes more and more essential. SeeD really can direct itself if the members take the wheel and take it where they would like, not the leaders. Everything the leaders do is in the preservation of SeeD, not in the dragging of the group. The leaders construct the vehicle from what the drivers desire and need, it is up to the drivers to take it where they personally desire. There will not be a truck pulling the vehicle, and if it is not steered it will move on its own, sometimes not where the members wish but there is always the warning before it turns down the wrong road when something can be done to change it.
I'm sorry about the past months, but it was required to end the overriding situation, and now that it is over we can concentrate on other things. Instead of saying that we failed because of a conflict you're in, why don't you try to do something about it? If you are having trouble we are here to help, but the conflict that is not tended to will do nothing but fester, and when it comes here it will require action from the mods. You are able to end your own situations, and it is not the clan's fault when a disagreement comes up. The clan must conduct itself, it is more than capable of doing so but the members just need to realize it.
SeeD is here for the members, not the leaders. We have never gained anything directly from SeeD nor do we intend to. The stuff at drop parties, the awards, the emblems, the available opportunities, and everything else that is available to members is not available to the leaders. We are not dictators, what we do is in the interest of the clan and what the clan does will take it in the direction mutually agreed upon. I know that things are a bit confusing now, but we took the wheel to avoid a disaster. Now we are moving down a straight highway, you choose the lane and direction and we provide the rubber bumpers on the side of the road to keep everything from going in the wrong direction (such as the one which will deteriorate SeeD). Everything is here for you and you can make SeeD what you want, both directly and personally.
#59
ratzaroony
- Yea.....
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 01:13 AM
If we were to vote, and this is a hypothetical, Cspace would end up being elected anyways, so just stop whining about not leading the clan. If you think you could be a better leader than cspace, start your own clan and see how it goes. The only person I believe could do it is Base. (no offense to others)
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#60
X Zolon
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 01:54 AM
Cspace, perhaps we should test the council out.
10 Members:
You (Leader)
3 S-Mods
3 Mods
3 Members
for the trios, preferably one person who throws out radical ideas, someone who tries to weed out really radical ideas, and somebody in between.
Test it for this month. Okay?
10 Members:
You (Leader)
3 S-Mods
3 Mods
3 Members
for the trios, preferably one person who throws out radical ideas, someone who tries to weed out really radical ideas, and somebody in between.
Test it for this month. Okay?