[Bmatt]

ok, i have read the topic, and your right, most of em are just waiting for you to flame peaple. mine was no different, but i am in a much better mood than what i was when i posted that. so i openly apologise for that post. i also read all of your other posts under your current acount too. after reading most of them i could go on and put a large list of flames here, but im not going too, because i read the bottom post.

[Essence]

Sure wars can bring clans together...however....it won't bring SeeD together. How can a peace clan thrive off a war? Specially when thier leader will not accept a war.

Wars advance and help many clans....but to any war thier is a loser. If the loser can't take the lost....then they will fail and die. If your clan is strong....and your leader is strong...any clan can get through any situation. I doubt SeeD can actually make it through a war...with all the fighting...all the hatred...the argueing and the spamming. They will become corrupt and die. Thats why Cspace won't war with me...

SeeD isn't up to a war...this clan is weak. I could have taken you out with my rebel clan, but you denied me any war and stalled until my clan was no more. Your smart Cspace....but your also weak and dirty. My clan was a unit...we all had one purpose in mind when it came to war. That brought us together. I made the mistake of trying to accomplish soo much in one summer. I ended up building a huge active clan...but we had little to no foundation. A whisper in the wind and it toppled over.

SeeD questions it's own purpose...it's existance and it's members. They are too divided and so they cannot attack with the same force. This clan built slowly and found a foundation....but that doesn't make you worthy of war. I hate those of this clan who think thier so bad...but they wouldn't war with me. They wouldn't make a little militia to satisfy me with. Nobody put forth the effort...they all hid behind Cspace words. His false lies about trying to help my clan. His way of manipulating his own members to make himself look strong for not fighting...it's not true. He's afraid...and he'll always be afriad. I question my plans and future clans...

Bmat...I shant answer your questions about the bandage. I never really understood it myself... and i accept your apology

This post has been edited by Essence: 08 August 2004 - 09:23 PM

[ratzaroony]

[Muler]

Yes someone did and I know who. I don't want to get into it, really.

As Cspace said we should drop it.

Off Topic: Ratz sign on AIM

[Cspace]

Note: This is not directed to any specific member, nor is it refuting anyone's specific points. I am only explaining what happened and why we took the action that we did. Not saying that we are right or wrong either. I am also not doing this to put down Green, many of the negative points were done collectively as their clan and not by Green. I am trying to bring closure to this conflict and prevent it from lingering on.

This is the last time I'm going to explain the reasons for our actions. Now that everyone probably has a better idea of what we actually did maybe it will be easier to understand. Read if you desire, it isn't very important if you were here through the whole situation though because I will be repeating some.

We have had wars in the past. We were much smaller and genuinely weaker when we had them. The first, through our organization and Gunblade, we happened to eliminate their leader three times in the wilderness during the period of a weekend resulting in their own acceptance of defeat. The second was actually very similar to Green's "war", it was led by the same person as the first war though was intended to break us apart (not a "let's go to war and see who is stronger" situation, but an "I want to see SeeD gone" situation). Since the previous victory on SeeD's part did not seem to end this and actually made the situation worse, we first tried our peaceful means of ending the conflict.

This was the first experience with a situation quickly transcending war and becoming a directly negative conflict. A "war" in Runescape is nothing more than a competition, but when one side wants the other to fall apart if possible then "war" will solve absolutely nothing as was proven (and twice later as well, though involving Gunblade and the "Anti-SeeDs" of the past half year). When one clan wants to see the demise of another, one of the worst mistakes of many clans is getting into a war with the one who wants them destroyed because war would make the conflict worse (whether through victory or defeat it would become worse), form more complex rivalries, result in pointlessly relentless flaming and insults, possibly end up with rulebreaking as a tactic, and the war would seemingly never end because a clan bent on victory would never give up.

In that war in 2002 we discovered the power of words in such situations. The conflict could obviously not end in a war, so what would we do? "Wielding" the basic concepts of group dynamics (that a group requires a purpose to exist) we ended the conflict by forcing them to change their goals. By "declaring peace" they had to end the conflict or they would make no progress, and it worked. It worked very well, even though their clan was short lived in the end we actually became friends and helped them; a few of their members actually came to us when their clan disbanded (due to inactivity).

******************************************************

This situation with the Rebels was hauntingly similar to the previous situation, although now it was taken much further. There were real threats not relating to war and going to war became even further apparently not effective in ending what was started. Stupidly frequent and obsessive flaming against SeeD was promoted on their boards (part of the reason we didn't inform SeeD right away was because we didn't want anyone to be hurt or flame back), quiet discussions about hacking our site were heard now and then (more like "it would be great if we could", however one time one member was supposedly contacting a hacker but it seemed to get nowhere), they were going on other communities spreading false rumors and some flat-out lying about SeeD (some even telling other clans that we were a clan of hackers), and on top of that they wanted a war which they felt that we would be obligated to take them up on (and they thought that we would think victory would end the conflict). Unfortunately proof is not available because it was lost with their boards, you do not need to take my word for it but I can guarantee that I am not making this up. This was not all Green, but it was all from their clan. It was also promoted.

Please tell me how a mere "war", a competition in the wilderness to determine strength, would ever come close to accomplishing their goals? I would like to know how a "war" would get us back for the wrongs done by three mods. I would like to know how a "war" can give you a feeling of victory worth half a year of work. I would also like to know how a "war" could break up a clan.

It can't.

We had to deal with the conflict, the war was just a little something extra that they wanted. If we wanted war we would have had no trouble, even if we were smaller we would have known everything through Slipknut and would be able to plan accordingly. There would be absolutely no surprise, and if he wanted to he could have purposely led your clan into a trap. You should be glad that you did not get your war and that we did not desire victory because it would have practically been given to us regardless of a possible contrast in power.

It doesn't seem that Green understands this, we do not live for victory in war. SeeD is here for fun and sometimes war can be part of it. When everything that has been going on with the Rebels, however, "war" is not fun. The other clan gets a deranged idea that winning a "war" is enough to destroy a clan. No. The Rebels were formed with the single goal to bring us down, at least until we made the post in Announcements saying that we would not go to war. Also, Green is wrong when he says that his clan will disband or back away through a defeat. A group is never a single entity, whether or not Green wants to back off does not make his members think the same way. Who knows, the next thing we know we may have two clans with the same goal.

You may wonder why I came to the conclusion that this was more than war, and this is why.

- Their clan was basically the third with the same goal to cause us problems (third of the same members). First it was not all negative though a negative faction broke off. Then there was an Anti-SeeD community which went down on its own. Finally there were the Rebels. This shows that unless the conflict actually ends they would just continue.

- Their clan formed on the premise of bringing down SeeD for its "wrongs". These "wrongs" were told to many players, communities, and clans, to turn players who have absolutely nothing to do with us against us. In reality these wrongs related to three mods and that was it. At first they were just stated as "wrongs" and nothing else. Then there was an explanation of these "wrongs" to make them apply to our entire clan instead of the few against whom they had grudges. Finally some members made up wrongs to give SeeD a completely false image to turn other communities and clans against us. They were taking this from "SeeD wronged me" to "let's get the entire Runescape community against SeeD to take them down."

- Months of preparation to form their clan which was strictly "Anti-SeeD". A clan that has existed for so long is never going to take a victory or defeat in a mere war as a single and all-encompassing victory. Half a year of work, one war, one victory or defeat, and then leave their target alone? It will never happen that way.

- Relentless flaming on their part with no resistence from us, then making huge points when a couple of our members say something negative against them. In practically every forum and every other thread there was flaming against SeeD in some form (on their site). This was promoted and joked about. Then a few SeeDs said a couple jokes about the Rebels and they made a big "look at what they did" deal because they needed support. To just see who is stronger this is not necessary. This is a tactic used when trying to ruin a clan's image and turn others against them, not gain a personal victory.

- The talk of hacking. Please tell me why this is necessary to gain a victory in a war on Runescape? This is not talk of surveillance but actual damage. Green basically said "we would do it if we could" and a couple others tried to organize it. They should be glad they didn't follow through because it is illegal, we can track this questionable access to the server, our server is constantly watched by professionals, and legal action can be taken for any damage.

Since "war" would not accomplish their goals and could actually make things worse we had to deal with the conflict itself. We used the proven tactic of basically removing the clan's purpose and requiring it to change its goals; requiring the Rebels to change its focus from the destruction of SeeD to something more beneficial to them (something similar though more highly looked upon and longer lasting). Basically we would put them into a situation where they would either have to change their goals or get nowhere. There is nothing dirty about this, once they had their "war" and possibly succeeded in hurting us in other ways they would be put in the same exact situation anyway.

Our "Declaration of Peace" was too effective though. Unfortunately their clan was not flexible enough to change its focus, and when we refused to have any involvement in the conflict their purpose was destroyed. I would have never believed that they could not change. It was this that caused them to break apart and result in the required closure of their clan. We did not do it, we just said that we would take no part in the conflict.

Contrary to what Green believes though, we really did intend to help the Rebels once their goals changed. We obviously cannot help them when they are against us, but if they decided to change their goals many SeeDs would have probably been glad to fight in a war against a willing clan to possibly help provide a victory for the Rebels. With connections to various search engines and our own server, we could have also greatly promoted their website (quite easily actually). We have no desire to hurt another clan and would be glad to help if desired. We have helped many in the past through guides, web promotion, and events. Many SeeDs were friends with Green and we would have been glad to end this fued and form more peaceful and beneficial relations between clans but the Rebels threw dirt in our face every time we offered. If they were really "wronged" they would have wanted to end the situation and make things better. This obviously was not the case, we offered well over 20 times probably to end this but they refused.

******************************************************

You can call us "weak" for taking a more benign and potentially beneficial course for everyone involved, we don't mind. We are not a warlike clan except when it is treated as it is intended to be - A competition of determining comparative strength. We especially are not a warlike clan when war is described as a means to solve a serious conflict. Runescape is not reality, it is a game. SeeD's purpose is to generally have fun in the game and maintain a worthwhile community. When Runescape becomes a means to solve a conflict that was practically created out of thin air with the intention to "bring down SeeD", then it requires the clan to really look at what is happening.

A clan wants to destroy the other's community and if possible bring them down, so they declare a wilderness competition. I'm sorry, it does not add up.

We acted accordingly and removed ourselves from the conflict, attempted to right the conflict, and then attempted to give the Rebels a longer-lasting and contrary goal from our demise. We were successful with the exception of the fact that we did not believe that the Rebels would break up from the removal of one purpose.

"War" would have never ended the conflict regardless of its outcome When we offered to mutually end the conflict we were turned down. Finally we had no choice but to use concepts of unity and purpose to force the conflict to end.

******************************************************

Green is not a bad person, and while he started this, he may not have stood for everything the Rebels did (I don't even know if he knew everything that some members were trying). I am not condemning him, nor am I saying that SeeD is always right. I am just saying why we refused to go to war.

Now let's leave Green alone. No more threads need to be written about this, nothing else is being kept from SeeD. No one is to contact Green whether with good intentions or not, at least in the name of SeeD. If Green wants to cause problems in the future... If revenge really means that much to him, then let him do what he wants. We have no need to beat the carcass of the conflict to death again. Let's forget it, and let's leave Green alone so he does not need to worry about us anymore. While many may be reaching out to him he does not seem to see that, so please can we (including Green) let this go?

[Cspace]

Double-Post (yes I mean to do this):

This is for those who know about the situation in its entirety and need not read all of the above. Let's just leave Green alone and let him do what he wants to do. While we cannot prove our thoughts and intentions, I can guarantee that we wished for the best to come out of this and that war would not solve the conflict which was purposely brought to us to break us apart. Our actions were all directed toward ending the conflict which would be perpetuated by war. War is a competition to determine the comparative strength of two clans. It can be particularly dangerous to everyone involved when it is wrongly used as a method to solve a conflict, especially when the initial goal is to see the demise of one clan.

I am going to close this thread to prevent it from going further. Please leave Green alone and let's not create any more threads or posts addressing him.

[Cspace]

*Triple-Post*

I thought that Green wanted us to stop discussing all this however it seems that he has further points to say. I am going to open this but there must not be any flaming or provocation directed toward Green.

[X Zolon]

I don't think we should keep it open. keeping it open this long has dragged the conflict further, so far that the conflict shouldn't exist anymore except for a group of people who still wish to argue amongst themselves.

Our intentions were never to get anyone hurt. Everyone whould lay off Green. He was fighting for his beliefs, something we see everyday on these forums, yet we never attack eachother this readily and extreme. Green is a person too. He was once a member of this clan, and as such, he should be treated that way. This conflict should be over, these arguments dropped, and this topic closed.

Thank you.

[Styledragon1]

Ummm its not closed

[Cspace]

[ratzaroony]

I sugest you close it... I got a feeling someones gonna flame someone else... . Not me of course

This post has been edited by ratzaroony: 09 August 2004 - 05:40 AM

[Star Jedi]

I mean no harm to Green or anyone in anything I’m about to say... I’m just voicing myself.

[Dragonman]

Quiet about us being weak already. You said that a stron clan can get through any situation. So instead of doing a pointless war that could just cause more problems/conflicts, we broke down your clan from the inside. This way all the new people becoming our enemies would stop, the flaming would stop, etc.

We know now that you would have most likely continued to fight against after the war, since you're still fighting after your clan split and faded away. I've never seen someone so unwilling to make friends just because they are in clan, a place to gather and meet new people and have some fun. Nope, instead it's just weak, dirty, meh meh meh....

Green, you've gone way too far past the line that separates too long and really too long. I don't want to critisize you, but you've just been so persistent to fight against SeeD and get revenge for something that you started. You never even told us the reason why you left in the first place, which is probably a reason too small to back up everything you did. So instead you did all this so you can give everyone and even better reason that SeeD is a terrible clan.

Let it go...you've even been saying you have, but, well here you are...There still that friendship option.

[Goto]

I agree, lets just leave him be. I think if anything we've proven that the only way SeeD will die is if it self-destructs itself, and too many of the members are cool people to let conflicts break us apart. Outside forces don't have a chance, as they'll only unite us together against a common threat.

Leave Green alone, whether he's going to be mature enough to leave this issue alone or not. If so then I respect that judgement, if not then while he's sitting around scheming and plotting, we'll still be out there having fun, playing runescape and defenestrating people. I can't think of anything short of illegal activities that can take us down, SeeD has enough momentum that even hacking the site would merely cause us to pop up somewhere else. We're a pretty non-threatening clan, any harm done to anyone is either done by individual members, or done with good intentions in mind (such as Cspace's efforts to help the Rebels survive past this conflict). I don't think Green could continue to gain popularity at such a quick rate as before in any case, so I think the best thing we can do is to leave this whole mess behind us and get back to unifying ourselves as a clan... by having fun and making friends. Sounds like a much better option to endless conflicts and 'wars', eh?

[CongressJon]

This thing's over, no one really "won" or "lost", just the RRR essentially disbanded, and the Green "threat" is gone. Everyone has a mature side of themselves, and a fairly immature or hostile side of themselves. If we could all just use that mature side, we can leave Green alone and finish this thing once and for all. We all saw what came out of it while it existed, so why not end it here? Small grudges that you may have could have a ripple effect. So I say if Green isn't going to do anything more to us, let's not do anything more to him. If we both choose to end it, that's it.

And besides, we're SeeD for god's sake! One of the largest Runescape clans alive, and then we've expanded beyond that! We are a Runescape community. A gaming community. A people community, even, a place where friends get together and talk over things they want to talk about And that's what makes us so great: We're not, like so many other clans, just people that are together for the sake of a silly game. No, we're here because we've developed, in certain ways, relationships with each other, and because of that, you could even call some people here your friends (YAY SEED!)

Basically, that image I just created (or at least, I think I did ) gives you an idea of what we can be at our best. We don't need to go any further into this... thing ... to any point or purpose, so let us leave Green alone, and continue to hold that image true.