[Roadtoad6]

If you flaunt the cross, brag, put down other religions, etc., the teachers have very good reasons to take away the crosses; however, crosses should not be taken away "just because".

Responding to the last post of Yulinford: if people were using crosses for what you said you need them for, "spreading the word of Jesus", the teachers had every right to take them away. One word can hurt many other people, especially if it challenges, degrades, or is in any way disrespectful to what they believe in.

As for wearing a yamacha, I did that once at the end of the school day. I walked though the whole school with it on. Some of the looks I received were hilarious and and some were disturbing. The people who didn't laugh probably were asking themselves, "Where are his horns?"

[Mobster101]

Teachers can bite me. I'm sick of politicle correctnas,,

[Roadtoad6]

Wearing a cross to show affirmation of your faith is fine; however, it becomes wrong when you actively use it against others.

[Grae_Face]

I'd have to disagree with you but that is why this is in the debate forum.


They are not being used to put down other religions and it is EXTREMELY large deal and it matters to me. As for gang related what are they the "Holy Rollers" or the "Bible Thumpers"? I mean jeez!

[Roadtoad6]

Have the teachers given a reason as to why they're doing this?

I can see it from both sides, though: the teachers' side whose objective is to make sure everyone of different faiths feel comfortable going to school, and the students' side which just wants to share their beliefs with other people and are angry that they aren't being allowed.

This post has been edited by Roadtoad6: 17 May 2005 - 05:38 PM

[Jake]

Teachers can bite me

I believe that the correct term is "educational techincians can eat me"

They are not being used to put down other religions and it is EXTREMELY large deal and it matters to me. As for gang related what are they the "Holy Rollers" or the "Bible Thumpers"? I mean jeez!

actually i heard that the barrett station & mc nair divisions of the crips, bloods, and the Los Guerreros de Jesucristo (or the L.G.J.) are in a gangwar right now. man its horrible what the L.G.J. are doing to these people. daily drive bys, ppl gettin shot just 4 accidentally wearing the wrong color shirt to the store..... its really horrible . its almost like something off of that movie Don't Be a Menace to South Central While Drinkin Your Juice in the Hood yes.... its that bad
Los Guerreros de Jesucristo = The Warriors of Jesus Christ (in spanish)


seriously... i dont know how the teachers get away with that



oh btw L.G.J. dosent exist the others do

This post has been edited by Sephiroth4d1: 18 May 2005 - 12:46 AM

[asyluman]

The bible says tell your friends about christ your town your community your country and then the world. if we can't do it at school then how are we suppose to spread the word of Jesus. It is like telling the muselim girl she can't wear her turban to school... wrong choice just lost $100000.

No. You're not supposed to get other people to convert. That's called jackassery.
I'm jewish, and if someone yold me to become Christian, I would get angry. I don't make people Jewish, you don't make people Christian.

[Kaezion]

I agree with that school. You shouldn't be wearing a cross in school. It's like wearing a yamacha to school. If you want to express a religion go to a private school. Public school is open to all religion, but in no way are we allowed to express or teach about it. Parents might be offended by what the kids and teachers are influencing their kids.

wtf? there are a lot of kids who wear yarmulkes to my school. there's no problem with that. i can express any religion i want.

I'm jewish, and if someone yold me to become Christian, I would get angry. I don't make people Jewish, you don't make people Christian.

you have a point. i do get angry at jehovahs witnesses that come knocking at my door - but that's a Christian thing for me. however, you forget that Judaism doesn't aim to convert because the Jewish religion prides itself on its exclusiveness - as the "chosen people of God," whereas the Christian belief is that all people are to share in salvation, therefore the motto is "convert everyone you can." you *can't* compare Judaism to Christianity.

[Spikeout]

Now some Christians will argue that their rights are being infringed when they aren't allowed to express their beliefs freely. This is a specious argument -- they are free to express their beliefs. But freedom of speech and freedom of religion aren't absolute -- I can say anything I want, but I don't have a right to say it on live TV if the TV station doesn't want to broadcast it. I have to a right to hold any beliefs I want, but that doesn't mean any institution (including the government) has an obligation to give me a soapbox for them. And there are inappropriate places to speak (or pray): a student doesn't have a right to talk during class while the teacher is speaking. He doesn't have the right to pray in the middle of class either.

[Kaezion]

a student doesn't have a right to talk during class while the teacher is speaking

the only reason for this is because speaking during class infringes upon the rights of other people, their right to an education. praying silently in class might make people look at you weird and you will probably miss some things that the teacher is saying, but it does not violate anyone's rights.

I have to a right to hold any beliefs I want, but that doesn't mean any institution (including the government) has an obligation to give me a soapbox for them

how is letting someone have in their possession a cross giving them a soapbox for their religion? the law does enforce the separation of state and religion, but even before that, the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion to people. while people can't use religion to influence the workings of the government, they have a right to pray wherever they feel like and wear yarmulkes to whichever school they desire. the law takes away religion from state; not the individual. to take religious freedom away from an individual wherever he or she may be - in school, or in the Pentagon, is to border on absolutism.

[Spikeout]

The difference is that a school-endorsed prayer is sending an implicit message: "Christianity is the official position of this institution. If you're not Christian, you are allowed to not be Christian by our sufferance. But we're going to remind you on a daily basis that we're in charge, and that your non-participation is dependenent on our tolerance." It's a very strong implication that Christianity is the default position, and that being able to participate in public life as a non-Christian is not a right, but a privilege that you enjoy because Christians choose to allow it. I have even heard this defended by some Christians -- their theory is that America is a Christian country, and therefore Christianity should be assumed to be the default, and atheists and other non-Christians should just be happy that we live in such a wonderful country that allows us to be non-Christian.

(I say "Christians" here because, at least in the U.S., the issue almost always comes up as a function of Christian prayer or religious expressions. Jews and Muslims may not have quite the same issues with public prayers that atheists do, especially since sometimes there's an effort to make the prayer non-sectarian, but they often protest -- and sue -- against public Christian prayers too.)

[Kaezion]

The difference is that a school-endorsed prayer is sending an implicit message: "Christianity is the official position of this institution. If you're not Christian, you are allowed to not be Christian by our sufferance. But we're going to remind you on a daily basis that we're in charge, and that your non-participation is dependenent on our tolerance." It's a very strong implication that Christianity is the default position, and that being able to participate in public life as a non-Christian is not a right, but a privilege that you enjoy because Christians choose to allow it. I have even heard this defended by some Christians -- their theory is that America is a Christian country, and therefore Christianity should be assumed to be the default, and atheists and other non-Christians should just be happy that we live in such a wonderful country that allows us to be non-Christian.

(I say "Christians" here because, at least in the U.S., the issue almost always comes up as a function of Christian prayer or religious expressions. Jews and Muslims may not have quite the same issues with public prayers that atheists do, especially since sometimes there's an effort to make the prayer non-sectarian, but they often protest -- and sue -- against public Christian prayers too.)

there is a difference between a prayer and a school-endorsed prayer. i wasn't referring to a prayer in which the whole school takes part; i was referring to a student praying in school, maybe before a test, maybe before a meal, or maybe because he or she just feels like it. that right is guaranteed by the government.

indeed, you should be happy to live in such a country that allows you to be a non-Christian. and me to be a Christian. and my friend to be a Jew. the majority of the population is Chrisitian, and this is probably where your religious claustrophobia/paranoia (it seems that you suspect that Christians are trying to force their religion on you by simply carrying crosses to school) comes from. however, in a country that secures religious rights of every individual, we have every right to practice whatever religion we want - be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, atheism, Satanism, etc. For you to say that it is wrong for a student to be allowed to pray in class or wear a yarmulke to school because you feel threatened that your "religious personal space" is being violated - when in fact, those students are only practicing their right of freedom of religion - is to force your atheist views upon non-atheists.

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 21 May 2005 - 02:18 AM

[Spikeout]

Cool. I thought you were talking about wearing crosses n stuff in skool. but its only about prayer

dats cool w/ me thers nothing teachers can do about dat.

[Kaezion]

i am talking about wearing crosses in school. why shouldnt i be allowed to wear a cross to school?

[Spikeout]

Simple. It starts conflicts.