[Traver]

team99parody writes "An "Active Denial System" weapon that "fires a 95GHz microwave beam at rioters to cause heating and intolerable pain in less than five seconds" is scheduled for service in Iraq in 2006 according to cnet and the print version of New Scientist. It was recently tested on people playing the part of rioters at Kirtland Air Force Base in New Mexico where they asked the subjects to remove glass and and contact lenses to protect their eyes. Hopefully real rioters will get the same curtesy. Police and the Marines are working on portable versions. Sandia Labs also has a nice writeup on this system with pictures of smaller versions of the weapon."

http://slashdot.org/...?tid=126&tid=99

That's just sick. Human rights infringement, anyone?

This post has been edited by Traver: 21 July 2005 - 03:09 PM

[Red Sentinel]

that shouldnt be allowed! it's human cruelty!

[Neraphym]

So is throwing rocks at our soldiers while they try and save their lives. It's non-lethal, so I say go for it.

[Traver]

You see, I have glasses. If they used that thing on me, my eyes would burn. If someone is wearing a necklace, a bracer or some other metallic accesories, they would cause SEVERE burns. Besides, it definitely has potential for cancer development.

[Red Sentinel]

oh s*t.... i have a big belt buckle.... that thing would make me a woman!

[Fabolous]

The things Iraqis does to us, some of them deserved this. i say Go for it.

[Traver]

Have you ever heard of napalm? It was banned, not because it is lethal. Bullets are lethal as well, they aren't banned. Napalm was banned because it caused unbearable pain upon the victims. I really don't see the difference between this and napalm, except with this you aren't fortunate enough to die and having an end to your torment.

[Jake]

ok i know this wouldn't work in iraq but for riots here buy slightly modifyed paintball guns instead of some two thousand dollar thingumywat.

a paintball with a shightly harder shell filled with a gel like stuff fired at you at 400 - 500 ft per second... [the max legal speed in a paintball game is ft per sec]



the microwave... wont work...



"mmmmm i love the smell of napalm in the morning"

[Jarik C-Bol]

intolerable pain in less than 5 seconds.

now, i read an article by somone who tested out getting shot with one of these things (at the range of like 1/2 mile) and he said that you react reflexively, drop to the ground, get out of the way, the way that the system is designed to e used is it fires a beam at about chest level (based on a average height of course, a little high on some ad a little low on others, but basicly torso) it feels like getting a sunburn instantly, and your body drops you to the ground. and it stops hurting.

from the website sandia.gov

ADS systems are a new class of nonlethal weaponry using 95 GHz-millimeter-wave directed energy. This technology is capable of rapidly heating a person’s skin to achieve a pain threshold that has been demonstrated by AFRL human subject testing to be very effective at repelling people, without burning the skin or causing other secondary effects

now, being as we are civilized people, you can logicly conclude that the system will be designed to prevent the people useing it from aiming it down and shooting people on the ground, have it fixed at the set height. that way, the user cannot "torture" people who are down from it. as for glasses and contact lenses, consider this: Iraq is esentialy a 3rd world country, that has been torn by war and fighting for decades, so the avalability of glasses and contact lenses is limited at best, so there will be very few people who actualy would be at risk from this aspect.

cancer? if it takes 5 seconds and you drop to the ground out of the way after that, the duration of exposure is actualy quite minimal, and as long as you dont make a habbit of getting into riots and shot with the thing, i doubt that you would develop cancer from that spesific thing.

from the website sandia.gov

   
DoD-sponsored millimeter-wave human effectiveness testing, nitiated in 2001, has demonstrated ADT as both effective and safe without any long-term effects. It is expected that  the DoD-funded human effectiveness testing of the small-beam ADS by the AFRL HEDR during the next six to eight months will validate its effectiveness and safety as a nonlethal weapon system.

yes, the people where asked to remove there glasses and coins to prevent eye dammage and burns, but consider, tear gas can cause eyer damage, as can pepper spray, which can also damage the lungs. so in some sense, a few burns are a fair tradeoff for lifeling breathing problems, and as i explained, the eye risk is actualy minimal, (one would have to look almost directly into the beam to suffer damage anyway) so in reality, it is actualy perhaps more humane than other forms of crowd control.

btw A 1980 UN convention banned the use of napalm against civilians in all technicality , it can still be used against armed forces. the US uses it (or something like it) to destroy damaged US equipment in battle to prevent our tech from being copyed by enimy forces. also, i dont see how you can compare a substance that turned people into human torches, to a weapon that hurts for a second or two and does not kill you.

[Ruckus Fox]

Yikes! Just when they thought that tear gas, a gas that wont let you open your eyes without crying a river of blood, was controlling enough for riots..They get microwaved beams....We have rubber bullets...Those leave bigger welts, and are more accurate, than any paintball gun. We have, ofcourse, the tear gas from choppers, and we have riot police with the OLD FASHIONED black jacks. (FYI: They're made of metal.) Along to boot with the plastic shields for both defense, and bashing, the actual paint ball guns, and the fire engine hoses...You'd think we'd have enough stuff to blockade a riot..Wouldn't ya? Well...I bet that this thing wont even air to the riots, I bet it's just a thing to say "We're building new weapons for war!" Even though we haven't declared war on Iraq.

I don't know what they did to upset you, yes...They killed a few people, they blew up a few hummers...Blame that on the people who -make- the hummers...The armor on those things isn't exactly....Bullet proof...There's a reason why the soldiers call them "Tin cans"

Life is not as black and white as some of you kids believe...There aren't always good guys and bad guys...Cops and robbers...

also, i dont see how you can compare a substance that turned people into human torches, to a weapon that hurts for a second or two and does not kill you.

Who's to say that they'll turn it off in a "second or two"?

---Ruckus the Rogue

[Jarik C-Bol]

Who's to say that they'll turn it off in a "second or two"?

---Ruckus the Rogue

not all people are total sickos, and idealy, it would be computer controled, to sweap a crowd and shut off.

more pointedly, you dont come out the other side melted to the ground looking like a over toasted marshmellow thrown off a 10 story building.

and the idea here is to control a riot without haveing to send people into harms way, riot police are ordered to show some restraint if posible, roiters are not.

[Ruckus Fox]

No, you won't come out looking all melted and stuff...But what Traver said -is- true...Such a beam, taken directly into a magnifying lense of glass wear, could ultimately blind someone in a most painful manner.....Equally for the heat sensitive metal...

When they use it over in Iraq, it's likely that some wont show restraint, perhaps their friend was killed by Iraqi fire...Well...He wants some revenge and continues to zap those poor little turban wearing guys with AK's...You can safely assume that it's computer controlled, but to prevent errors and fatalities, it probably won't be. That's something neither you, nor I can be sure of. Neither of us works for the government.

Usually, rioters are idiotic and in a rage...They feel the "power in numbers" and they come unprepared...A man with his bare fists could take down multiple rioters...Not every one of those rioters has a concealed weapon or crude improvised weapon to use, which is wear the rubber bullets come in handy...Along with the plexiglass shields and black jacks.

---Ruckus the Rogue

[Jarik C-Bol]

my point being, no system is 100%, a girl was killed with a "nonleathal" paintball type crowd supressent in a riot at a baskeball game a couple years ago (shot went through her eye) so even what apears to be a safe crowd supressent can still kill. the idea is to find something that is able to supress the croud quickly, cause as minimal pysical damage as posible, and remove the supressors from danger. riot sticks and sheilds dont realy do this very well. a stungun or teargas or riot batton or paintball gun can be used to seriously hurt somone if the user choses to. this may not be the best option, but it is posible that it is somwhat better than the alternatives. hopefuly we can find better and safer methods than this, but it is a work in progress, and every step in the right direction counts. this weapon, if you want to call it that, makes it nearly imposible to kill somone instantly, as a missaimed rubber bullet can, or a blow in the wrong place from a riot baton. it would take at least a minute of unbroken exposire to kill with this. if one roit controler were focusing on one person, it would be expected that other riot controlers would step in and prevent it because not everyone is out for revenge, and intervention by peers still one of the best ways to control it. and asureing that it is imposible for the tool used to kill instantly is a good step towards preventing riot fatalitys.

and lastly, i have to ask, would you prefer to be blind and alive, then dead?

<btw, i wear contacts, so i would be at risk from such a device, IF it is actualy dangerous, which i doubt, micro waves are on a frequencty that glass and plastic lenses actualy cannot refract. I expect that the reason the testers were asked to remove there glasses and lenses was to prevent burns, (metal parts on glasses frames) it is mabe posible that it could melt contact lenses or other plastics, but i have found no information saying it could melt any kind of plastic (contact lenses are made of plastic) .)

[Darkness]

Err, mostly all the things I wanted to say have been said, so this'll be short

I think that this is getting closer to a safer riot control device, but I don't like how it can make the burns and stuff when in contact with metal and stuff. I really don't like the idea of it, and I don't think that these guys deserve to get burned, like if they have some metal on them, like braces Yeah, I really don't like the idea....

STAR WARS!

[Jarik C-Bol]

final note before i go to sleep:
have you seen these things? look at the pictures in the articles. one is a truck mounted device, the other a bulky thing on a large tripod. these are not your phasers from star trek, it would be very dificult to keep it aimed at a person who was running through a croud, (or running at all for that matter) trying to avoid it. no doubt the small ones have bulky power cords or heavy bateries, which also help prevent anyone from trying to hold it and keep it trained on a individual who was trying to escape.
just pointing out that in there curent form, the ability to abuse there purpose is pretty limited.

darkmoose:
the article explained that the beam only penitrates about 1/64th of an inch into the skin, unless you were smileing realy big, your lips would be thick enough to prevent your braces from geting hot at all in fact, your eyelid is thick enough (1/8th inch or abut 4mm) to protect your eye from the beam.