[Kaezion]

I think it is because humans are useless bags of slop.

if you really believed that, you'd kill yourself just to rid the world of one more human.
humans ARE the greatest living creatures on the planet - did dogs, or any other non-human animal, build the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations from scratch? what about building rockets powerful enough to exit the pull of the Earth's gravity into outer space?
humans are the only "creatures" that have the ability to command logic and suppress instincts - no other animals, puppies or otherwise, can do that. thus, humans are intrinsically more valuable than any other animal on Earth.

did i in my argument say ANYWHERE that killing dogs with that kind of cruelty "doesn't matter?" of course a punishment should be exacted, but death by water gun at the end of a 50 year prison term wasn't what i had in mind. killing dogs for food (which i don't do, by the way - i am merely a customer of that kind of market) is different - it is done with a valid intention, an intention to benefit people in some way. again, i never said murdering dogs or any other animal out of cruel delight is excusable.

and of course, i'm just glad people like you won't be managing our penal system anytime soon (or ever, for that matter).

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 04 August 2005 - 12:02 AM

[Elvenblader]

I think that they deserve to be either thrown in prison or shot. Why kill an animal that is smaller than you and already has life hard enough without someone blowing the crap out of it with fireworks. It makes me sick that these people did these to harmless puppies. What did those puppies ever do to them?

[Serenarocks]

Kaezion, you can’t say that humans have done this planet that much good. Honestly, we've used up so many raw materials its crazy! Plants and animals are going extinct because of us. We may very well end up destroying ourselves as well as the rest of the world thanks to global warming, and what have animals done? Nothing. They haven’t done a thing to harm this planet. We may have built those magnificent Greek monuments and temples, and we have sent rockets to the moon, but I believe some species are above that and don’t need opposable thumbs to live a happy life. No, it’s true that I wouldn’t kill myself to get rid of our species, but I still dislike it. I dislike what we have done to our beautiful planet, what disgusting messes we’ve gotten ourselves into. I just hope that we can fix it all.

Back on subject, are you telling me that you would kill a dog for your amusement? I think not. It’s a living breathing creature that deserves to have a full life, even if it is a domestic one. I disagree with your views, I’m sorry to say. They do make sense, but they lack proper sense. Humans are NOT the most intelligent species on the planet. That is a fact.

I understand about the way you eat, because many people eat cows and chickens and other meats, but I just don’t like the idea of killing animals.
I wasn’t very serious when I wrote that post. I don’t like cruelty to animals so I think that they deserve to be treated the way they treated the puppies. It was a sick and wrong thing to do. Of course, I am a hypocrite in that sense because I kill insects, but then it is me that is a fault there.

Voila! There you are.

[Kaezion]

as much as i disagree with some of your points, i must concede that your argument is reasonable.
yes, it's true that humans have ravaged this planet. can you blame them? BEFORE you say yes, consider this: what are you doing right now? is your food in a fridge? do you have light bulbs in your house? do you have a method of heating your house, or cooling it? do you use toothpaste? also, you must also be using a computer, or otherwise we wouldn't be debating here. these are all major contributors to global pollution - the coolants we use deplete the ozone layer, the factories that make the chemical products we consume dump their waste into rivers, and most importantly, all that electricity we use ultimately comes from the combustion of fossil fuels. here is the question - are you willing to live without any of this? are you willing to live, literally, as an outcast, without a house (whose wood comes from deforestation), electricity, running water, or ANY of the conveniences of today? the key word is willing - i'm not questioning that you can, but rather, that you will. even if your answer is yes, by now you will understand that many people's answer to that question is no. then, it seems, that this pollution is inevitable - if, somehow, reptiles had beaten us in the evolutionary race and grew opposable thumbs, then i'm quite sure that they would have gone down roughly the same road (in terms of violating the planet) that we have. so, it's not a question of what we've done compared to what the other animals have done, but rather, a question of whether or not any other species, had they possessed humanlike intelligence, would have done the same. while that can't be answered definitively for obvious reasons, i'm sure that not just a few animals would also have been tempted by the luxuries (such as electricity, lumber, etc...) that entails all of this degradation of nature. remember that all of the species on this earth aim to live as conveniently as possible - this is a fact proven by the evolution patterns of various species on this earth.

how are humans not the most intelligent species on earth? because our IQs our lower than those of dolphins, or mice? you forget to ask a crucial question - who invented this IQ testing system? all creatures on earth other than humans live on instinct and habit alone - no risk calculation, no consideration of future consequences, no deep understanding of emotions. as intelligent as they are, neither mice nor dolphins, i'm pretty sure, can grasp the concept of emotion, risk, or happiness - to them, it's all about survival.

also - how can you say that animals who don't understand the meaning of happiness can live happily? do they experience love? no, what they experience is an urge to mate - that's something wholly different. the deep emotions unique to humans originate, paradoxically, from our ability to reason. our deeper level of understanding allows us insight into what we feel, enabling us to decide whether or not to act on these feelings. that is what sets us apart and above all of the other animals that get by on their natural instincts.

remember that i have never advocated acts of cruelty on these animals, however lesser they are compared to humans.

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 06 August 2005 - 11:05 PM

[Serenarocks]

You make some excellent points, but once again, I have to disagree. Humans show their intelligence in a different way than other creatures. This does not mean that they are smarter though. Just because we have more flexable minds and opposable thumbs doesnt mean we are above them. All living creatures are equal.

[ticktockclok]

I'm with Kaezion. They deserve a punishment, definitely. But Serena, your punishment was way more than what is correct. 5 years in prison and community service, but nothing else, other than maybe a fine. He's right with humans being the smartest and most intelligent species.

[Serenarocks]

I was kidding with my punishment guys.

Why don't the police shovesome fireworks down THEIR mouth for a punishment?

Life sentence. The person murdered the dogs. Maybe the person that did it shouldn't be executed, but that person still definitely needs to be punished thoroughly.

Naturally, some hippy "moral" vegetarian is going to ask why I don't think people should get life sentence for killing cows or other animals raised for slaughter. Cows have been raised for centuries for slaughter. Dogs and cats have been raised and domesticated for centuries for companionship. I don't see any comparison between the two.

Hang them.

That is plain sick. If not that then they should get at least 10 years with no parole for 6.

Life life life. And torture by having water drip on their head for a year, ice cold.

Eye for an eye... mortally wound them with firecrackers. Or send em to Iraq.

But I think we all know what the court's gonna do. Their stupid lawyers will say : Well, your honor, my client has pleaded mental illness. And then they'll be excused to a mental institute where they're probably treated better than ever before.

Im not the only person for death and/or life...

Also, just because were one of the smartest (if smartest) species on earth, does that give us the right to kill other species for fun and amusement? I think not.

This post has been edited by Serenarocks: 08 August 2005 - 01:16 AM

[Kaezion]

do you know how bad prison is? maybe none of you have been in a prison - i haven't either. but take some damn time to think about how it'd be living in a prison.

and do you really think those quotes count for anything? first of all, the opinions of other people don't really weigh heavily on my own, or otherwise i wouldn't be debating. second, in the end, all you have is a bunch of people - me included - on an Internet forum (where the average age is probably 13) who are arguing over what's right. you can't supply me with quotes from people discussing the same issue that we are and expect me to be impressed, because those are exactly the people that i disagree with on their logic or lack thereof.

and it seems that you keep misreading my posts. again - i hope it's clear this time - i never said that it's okay for humans to take cruel pleasure in mistreating animals, however lesser these animals might be. do i kill bugs because i enjoy watching them die? i do it because they inconvenience me (a lot, i might add).

so yes, these people should be punished, but in light of the fact that these people are human and the puppies they killed are not, the punishment in question should not be the same punishment exacted to those who kill other humans (which is life sentence if they're charged with murder 2: this requires that the convicted people have clearly demonstrated a depraved indifference to human life - which is clearly the case here, except instead of humans, we have puppies. therefore, the death penalty's out of the question, since you'd be more harshly punishing people for murdering puppies than for murdering other people). you're going to ask why humans get special treatment when it comes to puppies? simply because, as i stated before, they are humans. if someone had stolen a $5,000,000 goose-egg diamond, would he/she receive the same punishment as someone who had stolen a $100 bill? this is the same thing - since humans are intrinsically more valuable than puppies, the punishment exacted for the murder of a human should also be harsher than for the murder of a puppy.

and think carefully about how much time in prison that this kind of thing merits. have you imagined what it would be like to spend your days in a prison? i'd say that the killers would endure much more suffering over that several-year period than the puppies did during that moment of pain. yes, they deserve it - but what i'm trying to get across to YOU is, don't take prison too lightly unless you've actually been in one.

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 08 August 2005 - 08:01 AM

[Serenarocks]

I know, Im just saying Im not the only one. Yeesh.

[Bodom]

Hes right as harsh it is, a human life is considered more important :$

[Serenarocks]

I know, I just disagree with the idea. I just dislike people killing small defenseless puppies and not caring

[Bodom]

Its not that people dont care, the people who did it probably didnt care, but you cant exactly give someone a death sentence or something for killing something considered inferior to us.

If it was a human then yes they would be punished with death or something, but the puppy is the lower race here

[Serenarocks]

Yeah

[Noalei]

I'd say they deserved to be burnt alive. Animal abuse is unacceptable. Sadly, burning them would eventually kill them, they're pain should last forever.

[Ratty]

Mmm... I remember this thread

Sickening

Anyway, WB noalei