[Cspace]

i shal keep my head high, and help where i can, even fromk a different state. I don't feel like arguing anymore, so i'm just going to say this: whenever you can, find a red cross or other donation place and donate to the people who lost everything. that's what i will be doin this tuesday when the people colloecting come to our school again.

That's a great thing to do, but for anyone wishing to donate, just be sure that your donations are going to the right place because there are scams out there, as wrong as it may be.

[Roadtoad6]

just be sure that your donations are going to the right place because there are scams out there, as wrong as it may be. 

I heard about those, it's terrible. My family is donating through the company my dad works for, and for every dollar we give, they give a dollar. I donated some money through iTunes, as well.

Be careful about who you're handing money to, especially if you are doing it online.


Also, Bush could not have done anything by reacting faster. Bush going to New Orleans only "boosts morale", if you will. The executive order needed to be signed by the governor. That is about all he can really give. He's just a man, folks. If he goes to New Orleans, it doesn't change anything. It's heartening, however, and that's why he's there: to give hope to the people who need it.

EDIT: I'm going to sleep, so don't expect a quick response to any new posts.

This post has been edited by Roadtoad6: 04 September 2005 - 03:56 AM

[Cspace]

Cspace, you make a valid point, so here are the lies:

1)

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers?

Number one, in my opinion, they aren't misplaced, but that's besides the point. There were choppers airlifting people. I've seen multiple tapes.

He is making a point that they are in the Middle East fighting a war. As for the choppers airlifting people, they came later along with the National Guard to my knowledge.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

National Guard soldiers are in New Orleans. For why they weren't there to begin with, see Ratzaroony's post.

He is making a point similar to the one about the helicopters. A lot of the National Guard was sent to Iraq.

there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job
for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

He acts like democracy in Iraq is a bad thing. Considering the alternative: an evil dictator, democracy looks pretty fine, doesn't it? So why are we wrong in trying to set up a democratic government in Iraq?

What was the reason for us to go in there and force a democracy on them? There are many dictators in the world, we can't just go and convert them all. I thought we were after the terrorists, and I don't see what this has to do with stopping them. Also, who says that our ideals are necessarily the same all over the world, and who says that we should force them upon everyone?

Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

Other members of the cabinet deal with environmental issues, not the president. Blaming him is wrong. If you want, blame legislators for not coming up with more bills to stop global warming.

President Bush was the one who dismissed EPA reports regarding the existence of global warming. Here is one specific example.

It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town

Actually, it's not. The mayor and governor (governess?) are the people you should look at for lack of transportation and the poverty (although poverty is very hard to get rid of. There will always be poor).

The President does have a major role with the nation's economy. I would not blame it entirely on him with regards to the specific area hit by the hurricane, but Moore is trying to make a broader point regarding the economy using a specific area as an example. It is not wrong, but it is propaganda.

********************************************************

Just a note, I have nothing against anyone who posted any points I'm arguing over, and I do not wish to offend anyone. I'm just responding to the points posted and not as much to those who posted them. If you feel offended or insulted or anything with my replies to your messages, please PM me and I will tone it down in the future when quoting you. I can't tell who is most serious about these things and I don't want to accidentally seem to be attacking someone who is just posting an opinion. Just making sure everyone knows that because politics can be a touchy subject.

[Daryl C]

Well this seems like a heated topic. I want to second what Cspace said about politics are a dangerous subject and make great debates. I also just one to say that all my beliefs are from a Canadians point of view.

I have to say that the government took their sweet @$$ time getting troops into New Orleans. Under any circumstances it should not take them 5 days before people see anyone from the army in a natural disaster. Bush being the head of the government of course will take the hit for this.

Secondly....Bush had no right going into Iraq for anything. The UN decided against it at the time and why should American police the world? Better yet Bush goes into Iraq and doesn't find what was expected....and yet hes not to blame for this??

Personally I think that Bush has just made a mockery of himself while in office by the actions that he has taken and the words he has spoken.

More Muslims have died at the hands of killers than — I say more Muslims — a lot of Muslims have died — I don't know the exact count — at Istanbul. Look at these different places around the world where there's been tremendous death and destruction because killers kill.

Most of the stuff bush says doesn't make any sense...or it make so much common sense that most 2 year olds understand it.

All I can say is that I hope that your 2008 president has some intellegence unlike the one that you have right now.

[Traver]

Then he tries to drag race into this. Black power! Wait a minute, he's white, rich, and lives off the fat of America's (and the rest of the world's, for that matter) fear. Who's worse? The president who tries to do whatever he can for his people (maybe he screws up every once in a while, but he's human, folks)? Or the man who goes world-wide speaking conspiracy theories and using soothsayer tricks to make him seem like a man who knows what he's talking about?

I agree that Moore is trying to pull on people's fear, but he's not alone. Bush is doing the exact same thing, trying to make it look like we're all surrounded by terrorists and that we can never ever feel the slightest bit safe before we have a stars and stripes waving in every house on this planet.

[SlainThrax-]

4)

there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job
for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

He acts like democracy in Iraq is a bad thing. Considering the alternative: an evil dictator, democracy looks pretty fine, doesn't it? So why are we wrong in trying to set up a democratic government in Iraq?

You do know that Bush did that modtly for the oil correct hehe... his familiy owns a large portion of an oil company looking to make a profit. they said there were nukes... we founmd no nukes.... among many other things that i dont feel like typing out.

[Fabolous]

Like roadtoad said the reason why mostly Africian-Amercian were stuck there because they were poor. I mean they couldnt just walk out of town as they know and been and lived in New Orleanes their entire life. I mean for all this looting, if you were poor and all your house, belongings were destryoed and you see a store with glass broken and a big nice tv waiting to be stolen, wouldn't you take it? I blame this on the mayor for not focusing on poverty.

Even though Moore is a liberal douchebag he sometimes have good points (rarely)

[Baseballl]

I just got back from New Orleans this morning. I went there with a friend of mine and we managed to put up enough money to rent 18 semi trucks and fill them with food and water. What we did was travel up and park the trucks directly downtown, which wasn't exactly easy to do with all of the military blocks.

Now, I'd like to point out that there are troops there and there are helicopters, but can you really expect to airlift thousands of people in a helicopter? It takes alot of time and alot of choppers. Currently there are over 100 helicopters and nearly0 airplanes to help the homeless out.

It might be human nature to blame the President for everything, however, all I can say is you need to get your head out of your arse. Bush has virtually no control over the economy in this day and age and did not go into Iraq for oil. Although he can sway the economy, there is no way for him to control it when we are minor exporters and major importers. This creates a gold deficit and raises interest rates.

Just don't blame Bush for this hurricane because there isn't anything a president can do about it. I can agree that transportation should have been setup for those who can't drive or don't own vehicles, but it didn't happen. Some people just simply didn't evacuate and I have no pity for them.

[ticktockclok]

Some people just simply didn't evacuate and I have no pity for them.

I do. Not everyone is rich enough to own a car, which everyone seems to take for granted, or they were just handicapped. It was the poorer areas which didn't evacuate, and they took a risk, because they didn't have a mode of transportation.

[Baseballl]

I'm talking about those who had the means and didn't evacuate, not those who couldn't get transportation or couldn't afford it, which is why I made the comment on them.

[Neraphym]

Politics should in NO WAY be involved when it comes to disaster relief. Be a decent person and give up any political-base discussions involving this hurricane. I can't stand to watch people's lives and suffering become fuel for someone's political agenda.

As for the situation of New Orleans, there's a reason it's under water. It should be. To display my point, I took a small part of the videogame, Final Fantasy X to illustrate my point:

Wakka: Hey. Take a look.

Tidus: What? (looking at the water) Whoa!

Tidus saw a sunken city.

Tidus: A sunken city!

Wakka: A machina city-a thousand years old! They built a city on top of
bridges across the river.

Lulu: But the weight of the city caused the bridges to collapse, and it
all sank to the bottom.

Wakka: Right. It's a good lesson.

Tidus: A lesson?

Wakka: Yeah. Why build a city over a river, ya?

Tidus: Uh... Well, it would be convenient, with all that water there.

Wakka: Nope, that's not why. They just wanted to prove they could defy
the laws of nature!

This really relates to New Orleans quite well. The truth is, New Orleans shouldn't have been there. The condition it is in right now is proof of that. If you live in a place similar to this, I suggest you move. It probably isn't safe. There are certain places humans aren't meant to live. A place that would naturally be under water is one of those.

[Jarik C-Bol]

there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job
for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

this is a dumb starement, the army corps of engineers has little to nothing to do whith "building democracy" in iraq. they build dams and bridges and things like that. the only thing they would be doing in iraq is fixing those things, not messing with the government.

[Roadtoad6]

The bottom line is, as the Secretary of Homeland Security said (no, I'm not quoting him), that now is the time to do whatever we can for the victims of the disaster. We have time later to reflect on the situation and punish those responsible.

^kind of what I said in response to Moore, no? Well, maybe a little less... harsh.

I just got back from New Orleans this morning. I went there with a friend of mine and we managed to put up enough money to rent 18 semi trucks and fill them with food and water. What we did was travel up and park the trucks directly downtown, which wasn't exactly easy to do with all of the military blocks.

I love you (in a non-gay way). That's what people need to do! I'm not in a position to do something like that, but many people are! Moore being one of them! How about he puts his ample money and time into something worthwhile and productive for a change? Something that most everyone can agree on that is on both sides of the political fence.

Sad thing is: Moore won't do this. Everything is political to him. Instead of moral actions, he sees what would further his political status as a radical liberal, and what won't. Making propaganda is far more successful in furthering his political image, but is it the more ethical choice?

In conclusion, donate to the Red Cross, or volunteer if you can. Do something. Don't be Michael Moore.

[ratzaroony]

It seriously makes me sick to my stomach to know that there's someone who's trying to use this horrible disaster for political gain. It's unbelievable....


EDIT: First off sorry for not posting much recently. Dont wanna make another topic to just say that so I'll say it here. I've been really busy lately. Dont think I left SeeD or am leaving, cause I'm not.

Oh yea. Almost forgot. Base, you pwn.

[Kaezion]

Politics should in NO WAY be involved when it comes to disaster relief.  Be a decent person and give up any political-base discussions involving this hurricane.  I can't stand to watch people's lives and suffering become fuel for someone's political agenda. 

As for the situation of New Orleans, there's a reason it's under water.  It should be.  To display my point, I took a small part of the videogame, Final Fantasy X to illustrate my point:

Wakka: Hey. Take a look.

Tidus: What? (looking at the water) Whoa!

Tidus saw a sunken city.

Tidus: A sunken city!

Wakka: A machina city-a thousand years old! They built a city on top of
bridges across the river.

Lulu: But the weight of the city caused the bridges to collapse, and it
all sank to the bottom.

Wakka: Right. It's a good lesson.

Tidus: A lesson?

Wakka: Yeah. Why build a city over a river, ya?

Tidus: Uh... Well, it would be convenient, with all that water there.

Wakka: Nope, that's not why. They just wanted to prove they could defy
the laws of nature!

This really relates to New Orleans quite well. The truth is, New Orleans shouldn't have been there. The condition it is in right now is proof of that. If you live in a place similar to this, I suggest you move. It probably isn't safe. There are certain places humans aren't meant to live. A place that would naturally be under water is one of those.

you are without doubt one of the stupidest people ever to breathe. can you even fathom the complete chain of events that led to New Orleans's birth as a city? no one can - not you, not me, and not the greatest historian on Earth. if you don't know the cause, then how can you denounce the effect?
and so what if people lived in New Orleans? did they live there because they wanted to prove to the world that they could defy nature? no, they probably lived there because thats the only place they knew how to live in; they had their jobs there, family there, etc. who are you to say that they were living in a place that shouldn't have existed in the first place? instead of quoting stupid lines from video games, you should take the time to think first.

don't spew your hypocrisy about being a decent person when you're indirectly criticizing the citizens of New Orleans for living in such a city, many of them without a choice.