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"uff values" by request from dokimos... discuss

#1 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Jake {lang:icon}

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 09:29 PM

QUOTE(dokimos0rg @ Feb 17 2006, 08:52 AM)
UFF values should be discussed in a seperate topic, not to distract from other topics.  But as it is that I am in the role of visionary leader of the UFF Movement, I will reply to these refutations to our UFF cause.

The whole concept of clans exclusively for pking by exclusive levels is degenerative.

But if this is what they like to do, be a society unto themselves and cast insults on others who aren't up to snuff with their requirements, then they will continue to receive our response to expose them for what they really are.

"Cool" is NOT cool when cool is exclusive.  That is what the use of the old word "gay" described in regard to social events, a move of exclusion.

We did not start the United Freedom Fighters Movement without expecting that we were going to get criticism for it.  But it makes no difference anyway that we are criticised for it as we will be looked down on in any case.  However, through United Freedom Fighters we have a united stance. 

* * *

If clans don't like being called "gay" then they should have thought twice about thinking themselves as so cool to cut down those whom they deem below them on account of matters such as mere combat level.

Combat level does matter, but it does not define the character of the player, and is not good ground of itself to degrade another player.  This is the biggest complaint that has been laid against Runescape. 

Now the tables are turned.  I do not pity the social elite of Runescape if they don't like it.  They should never have taken such attitudes toward others if they didn't have the stomach to receive of the same.

We didn't start the fire.  It should be noted that this indeed is a politically hot topic in Runescape.  Granted, the Runescape Aristocrats would stand to lose their lofty reputation if our message were to become popular.  But it is already too late for them, though.  Already they have gained growing disrespect for their snobbery and it will continue to gain momentum.

* * *

Now, if discussion is desired to be posted in refute to the stance of the UFF Movement, I would like to ask that this be done in a seperate topic and in a respectful manner to the conventions of SeeD Forum.
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i made the topic for ya so here.

calling them gay clubs isn't insulting... it just makes you look like an idoit. sorry but i gotta warn you about that.

theyre is a reason clans want levels or ranks (im not just talking about rs here).
they want players equal to their skill to associate with.
just like how people in school associate with people similar to themselves.

not all high levels are snobs... sadly in rpg's such as runescape (f2p and playable in dialup) lots of little kids get into it. and the sad thing is they think "whoa this is neat i can cuss people out and not get the crap kicked outta me" so they go around being d***s and give everybody a bad rep.

The situation is the same on xboxlive. ive personally got to the point that if i hear a little kid i instantly mute them. dont get me wrong ive seen little kids that were cool to play with, but eventually after 2 mic's that have broken speakers from screaming 9yrolds... you get fed up.
(i realize little kids and high lv mmorpg players arent the same but they both have horrible reps)



i would type more.... but no.
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#2 {lang:macro__useroffline}   dokimos0rg {lang:icon}

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Post icon  Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:53 PM

No it doesn't make me an idiot, it only shows your ignorance of what you either can't or won't understand. My purpose is not to insult you, Googlebot, but to help you see reason on a subject you apparently do not like to think differently about. But I commend you for your open mind to discuss in this topic.

You are not alone as a player who has been shaped and molded by Runescape societal thinking. We in UFF view players like this as slaves or slavemasters to this corrupt system. These we seek to set free. We are the United Freedom Fighters of Runescape.

* * *

As I've said elsewhere, having wilderness teams of selective friends is fine. But when it comes to clanning it is different. Expressing contempt for others simply because they don't meet some clan requirements is what we object to.

You're right not all high levels are snobs in Runescape. We have had level 90s in UFF.

But many do express attitudes of condemnation on lower level players. If that is the way they want to be about it, we have the right to respond the way we do.

* * *

Again, none of this makes me "an idiot", Googlebot This is a different viewpoint from yours, but a valid one. We do not have to submit to the attitudes resulting from the corrupt common system of Runescape clanning. In fact, resistance to such crap attitudes with fair response has been long over due.

A reformation in clanning values is in order. UFF is an expression of this. We built from an entirely new foundation for a model of clanning.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 17 February 2006 - 11:57 PM

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#3 {lang:macro__useroffline}   ©allum {lang:icon}

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:59 PM

He said it makes you look like an idiot. Not actually make you an idiot.

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#4 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Ratty {lang:icon}

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 12:00 AM

I reckon he's one of those guys who sends hate mail to maddox...
Empty sig is empty.
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#5 {lang:macro__useroffline}   frylock9 {lang:icon}

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 03:23 PM

dok makes a good point headbang.gif
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#6 {lang:macro__useroffline}   dokimos0rg {lang:icon}

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 12:06 AM

OK then, you think it is about me "looking" like an idiot for UFF's estimation of restricive clans as appearing gay (exclusive). Well, they are gay (exclusive).

What I think or what they think or what you think doesn't change what they do and are. They ARE what they DO. Neither my opinion nor what others think of it changes anything. I state the facts only.

* * *

What UFFs say only appears foolish to the blind and ignorant. They are slaves blinded by their own system, blinding others and blinding themselves.

But for us, though, our clanning values are what lead to Runescape freedom!

We reject the system of overlording and despise the placing restrictive rules on others. We will continue in this same struggle for the freedom of Runescape.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 20 February 2006 - 12:06 AM

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#7 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Jake {lang:icon}

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:45 AM

QUOTE(dokimos)
No it doesn't make me an idiot, it only shows your ignorance of what you either can't or won't understand.


what i said was.
it just makes you look like an idoit.

but your following statement does bluetongue.gif

QUOTE
You are not alone as a player who has been shaped and molded by Runescape societal thinking.


i dont think i played rs long enough to be shaped by anything grnwink.gif

QUOTE
But many do express attitudes of condemnation on lower level players.


then fight angainst that... not a couple noname clans that'll be dead in a week.

QUOTE
OK then, you think it is about me "looking" like an idiot for UFF's estimation of restricive clans as appearing gay (exclusive). Well, they are gay (exclusive).


if you want to make up a name for these "gay clubs"... call them... homo clubs (homo meaning same level biglaugh.gif )

QUOTE
We reject the system of overlording and despise the placing restrictive rules on others. We will continue in this same struggle for the freedom of Runescape.

how do you overlord and enslave over the f***in internet.
and im serious here give me an example.





but then again ill admit... who am i to tell you how to go around playing "internet revolutionary". if you want to play at it then i guess it's none of my business but i do have to say this.

resorting to petty insults such as 'gay clubs' makes you look stupid, i dont care about what you may think about that but it does.

and that's not the only thing that makes you look stupid. declaring war on abunch of noname clans like it's gonna make them change their thoughts, like it's going to "destroy them", like it's actually going to do something.

now that makes you look stupid.

regardless of how smart you may be in person this is the internet. a place where there is no tone of voice, little audible sarcasm, and a place that a bunch of people from all over the world do things and make posts. While hiding behind their little aliases and avatars.
you have to think to yourself before making one of your little speaches "what is this going to look like when i hit add reply?"


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#8 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Res {lang:icon}

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 06:10 AM

Would you allow just anyone into the Army/Navy/Marines?
Would you not prefer to have the strongest, toughest, most elite warriors to have a battle?
That's what warring clans are. "Armies"
If you want in, you need the skill to be approved.

If you were running a war, you wouldn't allow a scrawny little man to put on a suit of armor and get a sword and go fight, right? You know why?

He'd get slaughtered. Instantly. Because he doesn't have enough power to support himself. And if he wasn't experienced enough in combat, who's to say he'd even be slightly useful and not just get in the way?

Which is why warring clans have requirements. So the leaders have an idea on how much experience the member has, and how much they can contribute to the clans welfare and overall goal.

Sure, I've met some pretty stuck up PKers. Guess what! Some people are like that no matter what. PKing doesn't make people that way. Although I'm sure some people can turn elitist if they're in the top Pking clan in the game.

So, in conclusion: The Level Requirement on warring clans is there for a reason. Not to exclude members from joining, but to make sure that the current members are strong enough to sustain the entire clan in a fight. That doesn't mean they exclude people, they are just cautious on who they allow in.

Have at thee.
Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be "The One".
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending
To write it down for all the world to see.
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#9 {lang:macro__useroffline}   buckbeak14 {lang:icon}

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 05:14 PM

sweet point there michael , i mean dokimos most of the best clans have reqs i mean we have some good fiters here at seeD but theres not much chance of us standing up against a a clan that only accepts lvl 100's+ , ya ok i know u say its ok 2 die but it neevr is , ya we won't lose any real stuff but its a normal thing u never wanna go into the wildy and die u wnna go in make a few good kills and came out again in 1 peice so if ur in a clan ( with reqs ) that helps u with that so be it , u dnt like clans like that dokimos don't join them but u don't have to pick fites with them either
a brave man may die a thousand deaths , and yet after each return to glory , yet a coward shall die only once and never come back again ....
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QUOTE
Just about 1400 years ago, there were a number of terrorist attacks on minor islamic states in the middle east by christian extremists. So omar ebn al khatab went on some raids upon states such which had part in the atacks, had the leaders captured caught and made to sign a peace treaty by non-violent means. He then had his men bring  chicken and lamb tht had been cooked laviously to feed his christian guests  whom up untill an hour ago had been his enemies but were now his allies.


he then realsed the christian leaders from his custody and sent thtem home with modest gifts

And for the next 200 years there was not a single christian extremist attack anywhere in the world.

Maybe it is time for this segment of history to repeat itself, maybe in europe  or  america? The question is, how can a muslim come to try and make a peace treaty when he sees what ppl like Black Jack Pershing did?
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#10 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Res {lang:icon}

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 05:34 PM

Right.

Nobody ever said you have to like clans with requirements.

However, you say they do nothing but belittle members that are not in. That is not the case.

What IS the case is that just about every post I read by Dok, He is berating and belittling them.

Buckbeak has it. Nobody ever said you have to like clans with reqs, but with the amount you go on about it, you're just inviting people to belittle you, as some members here do.

Not saying I agree with any of them, I'm just trying to get all this sorted out and get stories straight. Constant bickering annoys me to no end.
Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be "The One".
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending
To write it down for all the world to see.
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#11 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Darkness {lang:icon}

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 06:18 PM

QUOTE(dokimos0rg @ Feb 17 2006, 03:53 PM)
No it doesn't make me an idiot, it only shows your ignorance of what you either can't or won't understand.  My purpose is not to insult you, Googlebot, but to help you see reason on a subject you apparently do not like to think differently about.  But I commend you for your open mind to discuss in this topic.
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Well, it sure looks like your purpose is to insult him. Remember, as Googlebot says a bit later, there are no tones of voice, no hints of sarcasm, nothing. This is the INTERNET. If you say something bad about someone, they can assume two things. That you are trying to insult them and make them look bad, or you are just joking around. The latter usually only comes about if you know the person who insulted you enough to know that they are most likely joking. The former is the most often seen. Suffice it to say, you haven't been around in SeeD enough for SeeD members (the older ones, not the newer ones from UFF, who are still SeeDs) to know if you are joking or not.

Besides, throwing insults back and forth, even if in a joking manner, is never needed to "change someone's view", or to "win a fight", or whatever you think you are accomplishing by insulting people.

QUOTE
You are not alone as a player who has been shaped and molded by Runescape societal thinking.  We in UFF view players like this as slaves or slavemasters to this corrupt system.  These we seek to set free.  We are the United Freedom Fighters of Runescape.


Well, that's a laugh. Yes, a laugh. There's an emote to express that. lol10.gif Yes. That's it. Anyways, back to the point. No offence, but that one really made you look like an idiot icon_sweatdrop.gif The reason why? Well, for example, I played Runescape for only about a year. During that time, the only clan I ever joined was SeeD. I applied for one other, called the 'Red Capes', who only admitted level 50+s. At the time, I was... I think... Level 45. Anyways, I sent in a registration form anyways, and within an hour I got an email back telling me that, sorry, but I was not accepted due to my low level. This planted within me a certain form of prejudice against level requirement clans.

Now, if I didn't like them in the first place, and I've only been in SeeD in my whole time playing Runescape, which was the year after I joined SeeD, and have been in SeeD for two years since, how exactly am I so against the thought that they should all be disbanded? Simple. I already know, and knew three years ago when I applied for the Red Capes, that on Runescape, people are free to do as they wish, within the rules of course. If someone wants to have a clan where they get experienced players, players, as Mike said, that know what they are doing and won't get in the way, they are allowed to do that. Even if they are 'snuffy little clubs'. Most aren't. So stop saying they are. Stop insulting them, since it only makes you look like an idiot. Again, you can't win a fight with insults grnwink.gif The only thing you can do with insults is make a situation worse.

QUOTE
As I've said elsewhere, having wilderness teams of selective friends is fine.  But when it comes to clanning it is different.  Expressing contempt for others simply because they don't meet some clan requirements is what we object to.

You're right not all high levels are snobs in Runescape.  We have had level 90s in UFF. 

But many do express attitudes of condemnation on lower level players.  If that is the way they want to be about it, we have the right to respond the way we do.


Who said they "express contempt" just because they don't meet clan requirements? Most don't anyways. Again, as Mike said, some are they way anyway. Some may be born that way. Some may have been turned that way just because of being high level. But most aren't. So, how exactly, are you planning on changing people's personalities? By winning a fight in the wilderness in a game? By throwing insults at your opposition? That won't help at all. In fact, winning a fight/insulting someone in real life wouldn't do much to change their personality either. So how do you expect to do it over the internet? What charade are you attempting to pull saying you can change someone's personality, when even their parents, friends, spouses, teachers, and other people you have more influence over them than you, and they know in real life, might be failing at it?

Also, as even you said, you have the right to respond the way you do to people who want level requirements. Just as you have that right, they too have the right to have level requirements in the first way. They have the right to fight back. They aren't going to just lay down their swords before you without a fight, and even if they did, and you won a wilderness fight in some way, that isn't going to disband their clan! An internet fight will do nothing to destroy the clan that has level requirements! They'll just appear back in Lumbridge, and since they are high levels, because of those level requirements, your victory probably won't have dealt them a fatal blow, or even a wounding blow. They probably still have enough wealth to go buy back what they lost!

And back to my ramble about the Red Capes, what did they say when I got rejected? Did they laugh in my face since I was too low level to join? No. Did they stick hidden insults in their words? No. Did they degrade me in any way because I was a low level? No. They said that they were sorry that I couldn't join because of my level, and encouraged me to attempt to get those last five levels so I could be accepted. Yeah, that's really an "expression of contempt", and "attitudes of condemnation". >.>

QUOTE
Again, none of this makes me "an idiot", Googlebot  This is a different viewpoint from yours, but a valid one.  We do not have to submit to the attitudes resulting from the corrupt common system of Runescape clanning.  In fact, resistance to such crap attitudes with fair response has been long over due.

A reformation in clanning values is in order.  UFF is an expression of this.  We built from an entirely new foundation for a model of clanning.


So are you saying that you were the first clan to be without level requirements? I hope not, because you definitely weren't "built from an entirely new foundation for a model of clanning". Several clans were already around that accepted all. SeeD for example.

Nobody said you had to submit to those attitudes. You don't have to affiliate yourself with those "snobby little clubs" in any way. Just don't talk to them. Don't interact with them. Don't make yourself look like an idiot. Several of those clans will just die out since they don't have enough members anyways, since they don't have a strong enough leader (not in levels). So let them be. The ones that don't die out from inactivity are the ones who wouldn't be dealt a blow if you beat them in the wilderness, so save yourself the trouble and let those ones that you can some how beat from a wilderness fight die out from inactivity on their own, and let the others continue on the way they want to play the game.

QUOTE(dokimos0rg @ Feb 19 2006, 04:06 PM)
OK then, you think it is about me "looking" like an idiot for UFF's estimation of restricive clans as appearing gay (exclusive).  Well, they are gay (exclusive). 

What I think or what they think or what you think doesn't change what they do and are.  They ARE what they DO.  Neither my opinion nor what others think of it changes anything.  I state the facts only.
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Again, they aren't gay. That makes you look like an idiot. No matter what you think. And again, you can't win a fight by insulting people. That's like.... Flaming. Where has flaming ever gotten people? Banned. Suspended. So yeah... You won't get punished since you aren't insulting a direct member of this clan, but it's the same concept. Insulting is gai. grnwink.gif

QUOTE
What UFFs say only appears foolish to the blind and ignorant.  They are slaves blinded by their own system, blinding others and blinding themselves.

But for us, though, our clanning values are what lead to Runescape freedom!

We reject the system of overlording and despise the placing restrictive rules on others.  We will continue in this same struggle for the freedom of Runescape.


... Again, people aren't slaves! You can't enslave people through the internet anyways. Some people just have similar views as other people. That means that someone is enslaved, just because they think similarly? Nobody is blinding any one else. Am I blind, just because I don't think the same as you? That's what is sounds like. Sounds like Hitler. You're just saying that anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong, and thus they need to either start thinking the same as you or you'll punish them. Even if Hitler did that to the tenth power squared, it's the same principle. You're trying to partially take away people's freedom of choice.

You may be saying that you are going to give Runescape its freedom.. I've got news for you. Too late. It's already free. As long as people are allowed to do what they want, whether it be organize a clan with requirements or not, it will be free. I'm not some dude who writes big sermons, I don't have some dream for people to follow, but at least I understand what is, instead of blinding myself against others' points of views with some psychotic dream to eliminate any people who want experienced players, no matter how elitist they are.







“In the valley of hope, there is no winter.”

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#12 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Jake {lang:icon}

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 10:16 PM

whoa ive never seen dark make a post this big before.

QUOTE
if you say something bad about someone, they can assume two things. That you are trying to insult them and make them look bad, or you are just joking around.


ex.

Darkness is a dam nazi-mod!
- joke

Darkness is a dam nazi-mod!
- a semi-insulting and stupid really, but this would be me calling dark a nazi power whoring mod
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#13 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Traver {lang:icon}

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE(Michael @ Feb 20 2006, 07:10 AM)
Although I'm sure some people can turn elitist if they're in the top Pking clan in the game.
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Such as Superchao and Sajones?
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#14 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Res {lang:icon}

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 02:27 AM

Yes. Exactly.
Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be "The One".
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending
To write it down for all the world to see.
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#15 {lang:macro__useroffline}   Darkness {lang:icon}

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 03:26 AM

QUOTE(Googlebot™ @ Feb 20 2006, 02:16 PM)
whoa ive never seen dark make a post this big before.

QUOTE
if you say something bad about someone, they can assume two things. That you are trying to insult them and make them look bad, or you are just joking around.


ex.

Darkness is a dam nazi-mod!
- joke

Darkness is a dam nazi-mod!
- a semi-insulting and stupid really, but this would be me calling dark a nazi power whoring mod
{lang:macro__view_post}


Woah! O.o They looked exactly the same! Waitt.... Oh, heh. That was Googlebot who posted! Yeah, I know him. What a joker! bluetongue.gif

But if, say... Some person I didn't know, even you dokimos, I would probably think you were serious icon_sweatdrop.gif







“In the valley of hope, there is no winter.”

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