[©allum]

Darkness is a dam nazi-mod!

[Darkness]

>.> Quiet, ch00. They aren't supposed to know that!

[©allum]

[buckbeak14]

shouldnt u ermmmm... guyz b keepin 2 topic..

[dokimos0rg]

You may see my responses as exaggerated, but they are suitable to respond to the attitudes other clans have given and spread around Runescape.

If other clans are entitled to cut-down others for not meeting up to their stuffy requirements, we are entitled to respond to it as we do.

If you think I am ridiculous for saying what I do, then so are these others for saying what they have.

Yes, upset many will be at words. I expect that.

* * *

As I've said often, level requirements of wilderness teams in a clan are acceptable. Required levels for clanning is what we find gay.

If this provokes "the wrath of the best clans" let them realize that it does so because they started the fire.

The so-called "best" clans are only esteemed best by themselves commending themselves by themselves. I am not impressed by evaluating clans as being the best simply because they have the highest restrictions.

* * *

If clans don't want to be gay, let them drop restrictions for joining them while they keep recommended levels for wilderness teams.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 21 February 2006 - 04:34 PM

[Darkness]

I can respond to everything you've just said with my last post, but apparently you didn't read it

No it doesn't make me an idiot, it only shows your ignorance of what you either can't or won't understand.  My purpose is not to insult you, Googlebot, but to help you see reason on a subject you apparently do not like to think differently about.  But I commend you for your open mind to discuss in this topic.

Well, it sure looks like your purpose is to insult him. Remember, as Googlebot says a bit later, there are no tones of voice, no hints of sarcasm, nothing. This is the INTERNET. If you say something bad about someone, they can assume two things. That you are trying to insult them and make them look bad, or you are just joking around. The latter usually only comes about if you know the person who insulted you enough to know that they are most likely joking. The former is the most often seen. Suffice it to say, you haven't been around in SeeD enough for SeeD members (the older ones, not the newer ones from UFF, who are still SeeDs) to know if you are joking or not.

Besides, throwing insults back and forth, even if in a joking manner, is never needed to "change someone's view", or to "win a fight", or whatever you think you are accomplishing by insulting people.

You are not alone as a player who has been shaped and molded by Runescape societal thinking.  We in UFF view players like this as slaves or slavemasters to this corrupt system.  These we seek to set free.  We are the United Freedom Fighters of Runescape.

Well, that's a laugh. Yes, a laugh. There's an emote to express that. Yes. That's it. Anyways, back to the point. No offence, but that one really made you look like an idiot The reason why? Well, for example, I played Runescape for only about a year. During that time, the only clan I ever joined was SeeD. I applied for one other, called the 'Red Capes', who only admitted level 50+s. At the time, I was... I think... Level 45. Anyways, I sent in a registration form anyways, and within an hour I got an email back telling me that, sorry, but I was not accepted due to my low level. This planted within me a certain form of prejudice against level requirement clans.

Now, if I didn't like them in the first place, and I've only been in SeeD in my whole time playing Runescape, which was the year after I joined SeeD, and have been in SeeD for two years since, how exactly am I so against the thought that they should all be disbanded? Simple. I already know, and knew three years ago when I applied for the Red Capes, that on Runescape, people are free to do as they wish, within the rules of course. If someone wants to have a clan where they get experienced players, players, as Mike said, that know what they are doing and won't get in the way, they are allowed to do that. Even if they are 'snuffy little clubs'. Most aren't. So stop saying they are. Stop insulting them, since it only makes you look like an idiot. Again, you can't win a fight with insults The only thing you can do with insults is make a situation worse.

As I've said elsewhere, having wilderness teams of selective friends is fine.  But when it comes to clanning it is different.  Expressing contempt for others simply because they don't meet some clan requirements is what we object to.

You're right not all high levels are snobs in Runescape.  We have had level 90s in UFF. 

But many do express attitudes of condemnation on lower level players.  If that is the way they want to be about it, we have the right to respond the way we do.

Who said they "express contempt" just because they don't meet clan requirements? Most don't anyways. Again, as Mike said, some are they way anyway. Some may be born that way. Some may have been turned that way just because of being high level. But most aren't. So, how exactly, are you planning on changing people's personalities? By winning a fight in the wilderness in a game? By throwing insults at your opposition? That won't help at all. In fact, winning a fight/insulting someone in real life wouldn't do much to change their personality either. So how do you expect to do it over the internet? What charade are you attempting to pull saying you can change someone's personality, when even their parents, friends, spouses, teachers, and other people you have more influence over them than you, and they know in real life, might be failing at it?

Also, as even you said, you have the right to respond the way you do to people who want level requirements. Just as you have that right, they too have the right to have level requirements in the first way. They have the right to fight back. They aren't going to just lay down their swords before you without a fight, and even if they did, and you won a wilderness fight in some way, that isn't going to disband their clan! An internet fight will do nothing to destroy the clan that has level requirements! They'll just appear back in Lumbridge, and since they are high levels, because of those level requirements, your victory probably won't have dealt them a fatal blow, or even a wounding blow. They probably still have enough wealth to go buy back what they lost!

And back to my ramble about the Red Capes, what did they say when I got rejected? Did they laugh in my face since I was too low level to join? No. Did they stick hidden insults in their words? No. Did they degrade me in any way because I was a low level? No. They said that they were sorry that I couldn't join because of my level, and encouraged me to attempt to get those last five levels so I could be accepted. Yeah, that's really an "expression of contempt", and "attitudes of condemnation". >.>

Again, none of this makes me "an idiot", Googlebot  This is a different viewpoint from yours, but a valid one.  We do not have to submit to the attitudes resulting from the corrupt common system of Runescape clanning.  In fact, resistance to such crap attitudes with fair response has been long over due.

A reformation in clanning values is in order.  UFF is an expression of this.  We built from an entirely new foundation for a model of clanning.

So are you saying that you were the first clan to be without level requirements? I hope not, because you definitely weren't "built from an entirely new foundation for a model of clanning". Several clans were already around that accepted all. SeeD for example.

Nobody said you had to submit to those attitudes. You don't have to affiliate yourself with those "snobby little clubs" in any way. Just don't talk to them. Don't interact with them. Don't make yourself look like an idiot. Several of those clans will just die out since they don't have enough members anyways, since they don't have a strong enough leader (not in levels). So let them be. The ones that don't die out from inactivity are the ones who wouldn't be dealt a blow if you beat them in the wilderness, so save yourself the trouble and let those ones that you can some how beat from a wilderness fight die out from inactivity on their own, and let the others continue on the way they want to play the game.

OK then, you think it is about me "looking" like an idiot for UFF's estimation of restricive clans as appearing gay (exclusive).  Well, they are gay (exclusive). 

What I think or what they think or what you think doesn't change what they do and are.  They ARE what they DO.  Neither my opinion nor what others think of it changes anything.  I state the facts only.

Again, they aren't gay. That makes you look like an idiot. No matter what you think. And again, you can't win a fight by insulting people. That's like.... Flaming. Where has flaming ever gotten people? Banned. Suspended. So yeah... You won't get punished since you aren't insulting a direct member of this clan, but it's the same concept. Insulting is gai.

What UFFs say only appears foolish to the blind and ignorant.  They are slaves blinded by their own system, blinding others and blinding themselves.

But for us, though, our clanning values are what lead to Runescape freedom!

We reject the system of overlording and despise the placing restrictive rules on others.  We will continue in this same struggle for the freedom of Runescape.

... Again, people aren't slaves! You can't enslave people through the internet anyways. Some people just have similar views as other people. That means that someone is enslaved, just because they think similarly? Nobody is blinding any one else. Am I blind, just because I don't think the same as you? That's what is sounds like. Sounds like Hitler. You're just saying that anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong, and thus they need to either start thinking the same as you or you'll punish them. Even if Hitler did that to the tenth power squared, it's the same principle. You're trying to partially take away people's freedom of choice.

You may be saying that you are going to give Runescape its freedom.. I've got news for you. Too late. It's already free. As long as people are allowed to do what they want, whether it be organize a clan with requirements or not, it will be free. I'm not some dude who writes big sermons, I don't have some dream for people to follow, but at least I understand what is, instead of blinding myself against others' points of views with some psychotic dream to eliminate any people who want experienced players, no matter how elitist they are.

[dokimos0rg]

Yes, Darkness, I read your post. Often what I post gets ignored. I often have to repeat what I have posted elsewhere all over again.

Yes, I imagine Darkness that you can answer and object to each and every word I post just for the sake of debate instead of seeing a real issue we address in Runescape, which is the biggest complaint against Runescape, namely, the insults toward so-called lower-level players.

Now that there is a united response against these insults, there will be, undoubtedly, a counter-response to our response. This doesn't intimidate us nor does it change our stance.

Again, this is NOT about having recommended levels for wilderness teams but about level requirements in clanning. Somehow this keeps getting missed.

* * *

A certain amount of levity on this topic should be present as this is but a game, friends. I do recognize this, therefore, the slavery I mention, of course, is not in real world environment but a game one.

Slaves aren't slaves just because they simply can run away. Therefore, those expected to keep up with the bar being raised on rules in a clan are being manipulated.

* * *

The whole attitude of high-mindedness immediately puts down others.

You may not think restrictive clans are not insulting to those who don't qualify for them, but it has been well evident such contempt exists.

You may like to pretend this goes on, but it does.

* * *

Yes, everyone's entitled to their opinions. Those who like to think highly of themselves in their restrictive ruled clans may of course think of themselves what they like.

Oh, do I bust someones little ego for bringing them down about what they think of their wonderfully exclusive little club? Poor babies!

Well, for as much as clans will exalt themselves for their high and lofty levels and esteem themselves so wonderfully for their exclusions, there will be others who will be their thorn in their side to remind them what they really are.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 21 February 2006 - 05:00 PM

[Darkness]

Apparently, just as you said that a lot of what you say gets ignored, so did a lot of my post. In my post, I addressed every single piece of your last two posts before now. So as to not look over anything I said, and to show courtesy since you know that you don't like it when things get overlooked, I think it would be kind if you, too, could address each part of my post as well, instead of giving some vague answer that could mean several different things and, apparently, addresses my whole post without addressing any of it.

But anywhere in there did I mention a thing about wilderness teams? No. I was talking about clans the whole time.

Who said I'm objecting to what you say just because I'm bored and want something to debate about? Maybe what I'm saying I actually believe in, just as you believe in your words. So, technically, since apparently every word I say is for the sake of arguing, then I could pretty much say the same to you. Now, I know that you actually believe in what you are saying -- I'd expect you to know the same of me.

A slave isn't someone who's mind has been twisted to think like another's, as it seems you are saying, saying they are being manipulated. A slave is someone who is being forced to do something or the other against their will. Because of this, it doesn't make sense for you to say that the people being manipulated are the slaves.

If someone is insulted just because they haven't wasted enough of their life on a game to be in a clan with a whole bunch of people who flame you for your low level, then they probably have something wrong in their mind. Seriously, if someone is a jerk to you, why the heck would you want to be associated with them, let alone be in the same clan?

If someone is insulted just because they haven't wasted enough of their life on a game to be in a clan where they were encouraged to take the last few steps to be able to get into the clan, they must still have something wrong in their head. If you are encouraged to put in that little extra effort to get into the clan, then there's no reason to be insulted anyways!

If someone is insulted just because they haven't wasted enough of their life on a game to be a high level period, then what's the point of that? They could be wasting time crying to themselves that they haven't worked hard enough when they could be working and getting those high levels.

If someone is just too lazy to put in the effort to get up to a high level, then they shouldn't be playing an MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game). In all MMORPGs you have to work, and if you are too lazy to put in the effort, then you shouldn't be playing because you'll get no where and you'll just be wasting wasted time.

As has been said by several people before, now including Mike and me, some people are just like that. They may be born like that, or they may have been turned that way by being a high level. Either way, most people aren't like that.

To your italicized part, if you 'kill' a clan's members in the wilderness, how does that bring them down? They'll just get back up again, maybe buy what they lost, and continue their clan life. No clan, except for those with weak leaders that would die out from inactivity anyways, is going to die out just because someone wins a fight in the wilderness against them.

If you go and 'invade' a clan's events, what's the point of that? It's pretty childish anyways, but what does that do for you? A message can be easily sent around to everyone there, and they can change worlds and finish their event probably faster then you can find them again.

If you go and invade their forums, that is probably your worst idea yet. One of the advantages of a webmaster, and this has been said by even Cspace and other webmasters I know several times, is that you can ban and IP ban members faster than they can get a proxy and make a new username, so while all the webmaster has to do is go and click a few buttons, copy and paste your IP, type your name, you have to go through whatever that procedure is to get a proxy and you have to make another username. It's totally pointless.

[dokimos0rg]

Darkness, while it is appreciated that you have taken time to respond to each one of my statements individually, I hardly find necessary the degree of response you have given on every single solitary point.

That generally is the tactic of those who simply go out to decimate someone in a debate rather than to address any concerned issues someone may have.

I am sorry that I will not be one to answer you tad-for-tad and tooth and nail on every little point.

But to address what you lately said...

If you go and 'invade' a clan's events, what's the point of that? It's pretty childish anyways, but what does that do for you? A message can be easily sent around to everyone there, and they can change worlds and finish their event probably faster then you can find them again.

If you go and invade their forums, that is probably your worst idea yet. One of the advantages of a webmaster, and this has been said by even Cspace and other webmasters I know several times, is that you can ban and IP ban members faster than they can get a proxy and make a new username, so while all the webmaster has to do is go and click a few buttons, copy and paste your IP, type your name, you have to go through whatever that procedure is to get a proxy and you have to make another username. It's totally pointless.

I think you misunderstand what I meant in my post. I am sorry if I was not clear on this topic. Please allow me to elaborate...


Invade their event? I'm for it!

I don't recommend busting the event, only just to step in on it. Oh, so they don't want the unqualified in their events, huh? Oh yes, the old members only stuff. What elitist snobbery. I say "crash the party"! That's being a UFF!


But invade their forums? I am against that!

I am not saying UFFs shouldn't post in other forums. Only that such other clan forums should be respected. Disrespecting other forums does not set the right example befitting a UFF.

United Freedom Fighters hold to respectable values. We have presented them on our page... http://dokimos.org/runescape

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 21 February 2006 - 05:44 PM

[Darkness]

As you even said yourself, several of the things you say get overlooked. So what would you say if in each of my posts all I addressed was one of your paragraphs? I'm sure you know the feeling you get when you spend a lot of time explaining something, just to have it all ignored.

In a debate, if you don't address each of the opposition's points, it is usually assumed that you don't have an answer, and are thus trying to avoid it so that you don't sound stupid. Being thorough in an arguement never says that you woke up in the morning and said, "I'm going to go decimate all of my opposition in any debate I come across by thoroughly responding to each of their points! ^.^"

What exactly is the difference between busting the event and crashing the party? Not much. Nobody said they didn't welcome guests in, but what you said just now, and your post in that other topic saying that you agreed that invading their events was a good idea, makes it sound like your point in going to their event is to abruptly stop it without letting its purpose be fulfilled.

[dokimos0rg]

Was this supposed to be a debate?

I was willing to discuss what our UFF values are and to help some players understand our point of view.

Yes, UFF has a political disagreement in Runescape with clans with level-restrictions and oppressive rules. Our chat and posts reflect this thinking.

If we use our saying, "Other clans where only the gay players are invited." it is used as an emphatic expression of what we think of the exclusive attitudes of other clans. And NO we don't have to think such kind of so-called and elite and high-level clanning is cool to have us drool with envy.



If you happen to disagree with this, it is your choice. No need to be a hassle over it. You are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.



You are from the Galbadia garden, Darkness, which has its level restrictions and requirements. We of UFF have no problem with that as it is not a restriction to clanning itself. We find this acceptable. The Galbadian Legion has a purpose and cause which UFForia is in support of.

But it seems, Darkness, that you really are more concerned about winning an arguement than honestly discussing this political issue in Runescape.

Sorry, Darkness, but rhetorically refuting me on everything you can possibly imagine doesn't really say much to me.

Few realize that those who despise us only add more fuel for us for our fight for the freedom of Runescape.

If you were to give us a chance, we may find more in agreement with you than you may presently think.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 21 February 2006 - 08:39 PM

[nruilhce]

Ok i tried tolerating dokimos even got on with you, but your so damn ignorant ;\\\\

From personal experiences with \\\"Gay\\\" clans none of them shun lower leveled peoples, for a fact we encourage them to hang with us, level up etc and try join us, never do we tell them to **** off and call them noobs because they dont meet the requirements ;\\\\.

Its not slavery either, its people, who work hard and get in a new family and do what they like to do with people around their own level.

You live in this world were clans are communitys, clans like that arent really around any more.. \\\"Wilderness teams\\\" are the new type of clan, live with it, maybe when you experience these clans first hand youd understand why requirements are necessary, and im on about the real clans in the rankings on rsc, tip.it etc, not the \\\"Freeweb clans of great threat\\\" which die out in two days and have no forums or means of communication.

Darkness actually makes excellent points and manages to prove the majority of yours wrong, and you know this, but refuse to even try counter him. Hes got you ;\\\\

I dunno where you\\\'ve got this huge idea that all clans flame lower levels or people unable to join them, and if anything the requirements make people want to work and join, getting into the clan im in now was one of the greatest achievements ive ever done and would never give it up ;\\\\ and ive been training to reach it since 60 combat.. now if these clans are so terribly.. why did i bother? Why is anyone bothering? Why is over 80% of Runescape in these clans?

Tbh you\\\'re clan wont get anywhere, im just gonna say it lol, constantly \\\"killing\\\" all these freeweb clans noone gives a dam about will get you nothing, maybe some steel armour, but nothing in the longrun.

\\\"
If we use our saying, \\\"Other clans where only the gay players are invited.\\\" it is used as an emphatic expression of what we think of the exclusive attitudes of other clans. And NO we don\\\'t have to think such kind of so-called and elite and high-level clanning is cool to have us drool with envy.\\\"

Again, join one of these clans and experience it first hand. You\\\'ll get a shock.



edit: i duno why tons of \\ are there but i cba fixing.

This post has been edited by nruilhce: 21 February 2006 - 09:45 PM

[Jake]

Was this supposed to be a debate? 
To an extent, yes.

I was willing to discuss what our UFF values are and to help some players understand our point of view. 
i understand your point of view... in the same way i understand the kkk... but that dosent mean i agree with them, or you.

Yes, UFF has a political disagreement in Runescape with clans with level-restrictions and oppressive rules.  Our chat and posts reflect this thinking. 
since when does runescape have politics? do i have to F***in explain to you the meaning of politics?

If we use our saying, "Other clans where only the gay players are invited." it is used as an emphatic expression of what we think of the exclusive attitudes of other clans.  And NO we don't have to think such kind of so-called and elite and high-level clanning is cool to have us drool with envy.
ok so can i now start calling uff gay because they dont agree with me?
from here on out (till i say otherwise, forget, or get modded) u shall refer to the U.F.F. as the G.A.Y.
of course im just using it as an "emphatic expression" of what i think about other clans.


If you happen to disagree with this, it is your choice.  No need to be a hassle over it.  You are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.
You are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.
Damn hypocrit... so the other clans with lv requirements arent allowed theyre opinion?
Sorry for making a samuel jackson quote but Thats some {bleep}ed up repugnant {bleep} right there.


You are from the Galbadia garden, Darkness, which has its level restrictions and requirements.  We of UFF have no problem with that as it is not a restriction to clanning itself.  We find this acceptable.  The Galbadian Legion has a purpose and cause which UFForia is in support of.

But it seems, Darkness, that you really are more concerned about winning an arguement than honestly discussing this political issue in Runescape.
again with the politics.... honestly i wonder what dark would say to you if we just let him loose? by that i mean he wasn't held back by being a mod.

Sorry, Darkness, but rhetorically refuting me on everything you can possibly imagine doesn't really say much to me. 
what part of that sentence dosent make sence to me...

Few realize that those who despise us only add more fuel for us for our fight for the freedom of Runescape.
Runescape if free. not only is it f2p but it also gives you freedom as for what "class" you want your character to be... as in you can seamlessly switch classes.
to top that off as much as i think jagex is a bunch of cheap {bleep} who dont care about their memberbase... they dont force you to play the game a certain way... i believe the term  is Non-Linear but i might be wrong.

If you were to give us a chance, we may find more in agreement with you than you may presently think.

because im lazy i made replys in MONOTONE RED within his post!

[Jake]

Ok i tried tolerating dokimos even got on with you, but your so damn ignorant ;\\\\

From personal experiences with \\\"Gay\\\" clans none of them shun lower leveled peoples, for a fact we encourage them to hang with us, level up etc and try join us, never do we tell them to **** off and call them noobs because they dont meet the requirements ;\\\\.

Its not slavery either, its people, who work hard and get in a new family and do what they like to do with people around their own level.

You live in this world were clans are communitys, clans like that arent really around any more.. \\\"Wilderness teams\\\" are the new type of clan, live with it, maybe when you experience these clans first hand youd understand why requirements are necessary, and im on about the real clans in the rankings on rsc, tip.it etc, not the \\\"Freeweb clans of great threat\\\" which die out in two days and have no forums or means of communication.

Darkness actually makes excellent points and manages to prove the majority of yours wrong, and you know this, but refuse to even try counter him.  Hes got you ;\\\\

I dunno where you\\\'ve got this huge idea that all clans flame lower levels or people unable to join them, and if anything the requirements make people want to work and join, getting into the clan im in now was one of the greatest achievements ive ever done and would never give it up ;\\\\ and ive been training to reach it since 60 combat.. now if these clans are so terribly.. why did i bother? Why is anyone bothering? Why is over 80% of Runescape in these clans?

Tbh you\\\'re clan wont get anywhere, im just gonna say it lol, constantly \\\"killing\\\" all these freeweb clans noone gives a dam about will get you nothing, maybe some steel armour, but nothing in the longrun.

\\\"
If we use our saying, \\\"Other clans where only the gay players are invited.\\\" it is used as an emphatic expression of what we think of the exclusive attitudes of other clans. And NO we don\\\'t have to think such kind of so-called and elite and high-level clanning is cool to have us drool with envy.\\\"

Again, join one of these clans and experience it first hand.  You\\\'ll get a shock.



edit: i duno why tons of \\ are there but i cba fixing.

AMEN!
he posted while i was typing

ah mai gawd double post! SHOOT ME!

[Darkness]

again with the politics.... honestly i wonder what dark would say to you if we just let him loose? by that i mean he wasn't held back by being a mod.

Believe me, it wouldn't be pretty. I actually have a really, really short temper in RL. And I have a short temper on the net. But, unfortunately, I have to hold it back because of my modship... Sometimes I snap though. I can name a few times. April 1, 2005... A while ago in the mod discussion when I couldn't take it again when someone said... "Darky, your a mod! You shouldn't spam!" But yeah. It really wouldn't bre pretty Unfortunately, my strength of will is waning ^.^

Plus, I'm getting quite annoyed over the fact that you won't -- or can't -- respond to half of the things I post ^.^



Yeah, sorry Dok, but it really does seem like you are trying to avoid answering what I say :/

Was this supposed to be a debate?

Yes.

I was willing to discuss what our UFF values are and to help some players understand our point of view.

And that is just what you did. Unfortunately, I countered each of your points too well for you to be able to make up, yes, make up, any reasonable rebuke.

Yes, UFF has a political disagreement in Runescape with clans with level-restrictions and oppressive rules. Our chat and posts reflect this thinking.

There aren't any politics in Runescape >.>

If we use our saying, "Other clans where only the gay players are invited." it is used as an emphatic expression of what we think of the exclusive attitudes of other clans. And NO we don't have to think such kind of so-called and elite and high-level clanning is cool to have us drool with envy.

Nobody said you had to like them. Nobody said to drool or be envious. Did anyone say that? No. You're putting words in our mouths

If you happen to disagree with this, it is your choice. No need to be a hassle over it. You are entitled to your opinion and we to ours.

You are partially trying to take away others' freedom of choice. They are entitled to what they want to do just as you and I are, so leave them be >.>

You are from the Galbadia garden, Darkness, which has its level restrictions and requirements. We of UFF have no problem with that as it is not a restriction to clanning itself. We find this acceptable. The Galbadian Legion has a purpose and cause which UFForia is in support of.

It does? *looks around* No it doesn't. There aren't any restrictions on Galbadia. I'd know; I'm the Headmaster of it, no matter how inactive it and its members may be. There aren't any restrictions. And, actually, Galbadia Garden does not have a purpose or cause.

But it seems, Darkness, that you really are more concerned about winning an arguement than honestly discussing this political issue in Runescape.

Be that as it may, I am not in any way interested in winning this arguement. All I want to do is knock some sense in your head >.>

Sorry, Darkness, but rhetorically refuting me on everything you can possibly imagine doesn't really say much to me.

Keep thinking that's what I'm doing if it helps you sleep well at night

Few realize that those who despise us only add more fuel for us for our fight for the freedom of Runescape.

I've already written quite a lengthy paragraph on the freedom of Runescape a few posts up, but, apparently, you didn't read that either. So, if you have any respect for me left, go read it.

If you were to give us a chance, we may find more in agreement with you than you may presently think.

Mhmm, perhaps, but so far it doesn't seem that way. And you can very well try to find things we have in common, but you'll probably come up empty.


Several people have a very firm point of view of what a clan is or is not. Some think a clan is a wilderness team. Some think it's a market system. Some think lots of other things. There isn't any determined definition of how a clan has to be organized. People who think there is a predetermined way a clan exists are people who don't think SeeD is a clan.

Several people who are in requirement clans, and several people who are in other kinds of clans as well, think their clan is the only way, and are trying to force this view on other people. Neither UFF nor SeeD agrees with their outlook or trying to get everyone to have the same view as them, but while SeeD is passive in that resistance, UFF is trying to change what everyone else does. You're trying to force your ideals on other clans, just as much as the current top clans are.