[nruilhce]

actually the top clans couldnt really care if clans have reqs or not :$ UFF wouldnt be able to put up a fight or invade top clan events anyway

[Goto]

Several people who are in requirement clans, and several people who are in other kinds of clans as well, think their clan is the only way, and are trying to force this view on other people. Neither UFF nor SeeD agrees with their outlook or trying to get everyone to have the same view as them, but while SeeD is passive in that resistance, UFF is trying to change what everyone else does. You're trying to force your ideals on other clans, just as much as the current top clans are.

That paragraph looks oddly familiar, almost as if I'd just told you it on MSN shortly before you posted.



I think most of what needs to be said has been said. This is a debate and has been from the start. A debate is defined as "A discussion involving opposing points; an argument." While the definition of argument itself may not apply here, this is certainly a discussion about opposing points, you invited people to discuss your policies and any discussion in which people try to win over others to their opinion is going to be a debate.


Darkness stole my favourite bit, but I guess I'll reiterate a bit. SeeD accepted the merger because many of our goals and opinions seemed similar, and you needed the infrastructure while we needed a boost in activity. On a personal level, it didn't take long after the merger for me to realise that while some of our ideals are simpler, we differ a lot in the execution of these goals. You hold freedom above all else, that much is fairly obvious. The problem is that you seek to increase your freedom by decreasing the freedom of others. You wish to try to destroy clans with requirements to 'liberate' the members, leaving all clans a carbon copy of the UFF. As has been pointed out countless times in this very topic, how they choose to run their clan is up to them. From the point of view of 'Freedom', there is no difference between having requirements or not. The leader of a clan with requirements is 'free' to mold the clan into whatever they like, they are not bound to accept all applicants (Which is itself a breach of their freedom if they do not wish to).
The people in these clans are happy, you seem to be aiming at the wrong target. The people actually within the clans are free to be in a group that they enjoy. Destroying these clans will not make the low-levels happy, it will merely destroy the happiness of all the people you forcibly evict from the req clans. Low-levels will still be clan-less, and they will be left without a goal to aim for if they do decide to put in the effort to reach a high level. Add that to the fact that has already been stated that killing people in the wilderness will in no way destroy clans, and that's why I think that your clan is unfortunately doomed to failure. Especially since a single warring clan with high reqs would have little trouble killing off any number of the low level players that make up the majority of clans with no reqs.


That's UFF, you're trying to take an active stance towards what you see as a great unjustice. As well as trying to restrict the freedom of other clans, you only stopped restricting your members from joining other clans from the merger onwards.

While many in SeeD have no particular love for high-req clans, we don't feel it's necessary to validate our existence by shunning them. If that's how they want to play the game, it makes no real difference. When arguments do spring up, it's always because they don't want to consider SeeD a clan at all. That's why SeeD is passive, we don't seek to change the ways of others. We just provide a haven for those that would prefer not to join clans with a warring focus, whether they be high or low levels. You seek to change all clans into your image, while we prefer to live and let live and get on with enjoying the game.

That's not to say that it's impossible for SeeD to make a difference, but we lead by example rather than trying to force others to our will. If people see how SeeD is run and like it, they might well later go on to create similar clans of their own. And we're certainly not alone in our style of clanning, either. It just seems likely that you're going to burn yourself out and cause your clan to crash if you're devoting your energy to the extremist goal of destroying other clans. Something like that isn't going to be stable, it's going to have a meteoric rise to numbers, and an equally quick fall. We've already witnessed the rise, but it isn't too late to adjust your focus to an extent that you can become more stable and actually enjoy your clan rather than it being a means to an end.


Hopefully some of that makes sense, it's kind of late. I've probably missed a whole bunch of points I wanted to make, I do tend to ramble a bit. I don't really care if people try to disect my post or anything, but please at least consider the opinions within before you retort with more vague and slightly melodramatic sentiments. I'd be quite interested to hear if there was a req clan that rejected you in the past, you seem to have a bit of a grudge against them.

[dokimos0rg]

The southern states of the U.S. cried their freedom to have slaves was being taken away from them by those who wish to have freedom at the cost of their own.

The arguement that UFF is fighting against freedom by being against clan requirements being made and raised on others is just as bogus.

We are not restricting anyone. We only disapprove of joining clans that are restrictive in nature. If UFFs want to do that, they may do so, but that would not show themselves as UFFs. We are what we do.

I have nothing to apologize for here. UFFs are not the ones doing the shunning exclusions. Somehow, some players have got this all backwards.

Slavery isn't freedom. Freedom to make slaves is not a freedom that should be afforded. This is all in a game context of course. Players aren't actually real slaves. This is a game.

* * *

Other clans can and do what they want making slaves of players, making demand on them to remain in these exclusive natured clans. And we can do what we want to fight against such.

But if UFF is to be esteemed as bogus, so is all other clanning in Runescape and the game itself, bogus.

You don't like how other clans are being painted as "gay"? Well they painted themselves that, we only saw it for what it is. Granted, they will have their opinions of us, which some here wish to express. It is expected and was expected from the start.

* * *

Whenever we are reminded of what ways we are ineffective, it becomes fuel for us to press on further with our cause.

If UFF is really so noobish and wrong as you think, then why do you fret yourselves so much about it. LOL!

UFF is not flaming against individual clans by name, nor against individual players. Our use of the term "gay" emphasizes how we esteem the nature of their exclusive clanning. You are all taking this way much too personally. You defend the nature of control-clanning as you would your mothers!

Take a chill pill, friends. I did say, discuss, not debate. If you are expecting UFF to change its stance somehow, you will be disappointed to find that we are indomitable.

These other clans will not be ruling over us and we will continue to exhort others to be free from their slavery. Sorry if that busts someone's little party. We cast out overlords! FREEDOM NOW!

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 22 February 2006 - 03:43 PM

[nruilhce]

These other clans will not be ruling over us and we will continue to exhort others to be free from their slavery.  Sorry if that busts someone\'s little party.  We cast out overlords!  FREEDOM NOW!

Everytime you say that i laugh..

You act as if everyone who joins a req clan is forced into it and forced to stay in it and then hates their life and wishes they could leave but some magical force is keeping them from doing so. They have freedom, they can do what they want in the clan, they just need a level to get in the clan TO BE WITH PEOPLE THEIR OWN LEVEL.

Im 122 and **** off would i be pking with a level 40, theres no reasoning to even do so.

[dokimos0rg]

Im 122 and **** off would i be pking with a level 40, theres no reasoning to even do so.

Nruilhce, you laugh not even comprehending the basic premise of my posts.

I keep saying this in posts and it hardly gets understood...

THIS IS NOT ABOUT LEVELS TO GO ON WILDY TRIPS!

IT IS ABOUT RESTRICTING LEVELS TO CREATE EXCLUSIVE CLANNING!

Recommended levels for wilderness trips is well understood. Having a restrictive society is an objectionable matter.

Our objection to restrictive clanning in Runescape is the issue. It has nothing to do with wilderness trips.

Does everyone understand this yet?

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 22 February 2006 - 08:34 PM

[Res]

Yes, or from what I understand.

You appear to be saying requirements for clans are bad.
Therefore all clans that require members to be certain levels to join are bad.

Am I on the same page as you here?

[dokimos0rg]

Yes, or from what I understand.

You appear to be saying requirements for clans are bad.
Therefore all clans that require members to be certain levels to join are bad.

Am I on the same page as you here?

Exclusive requirements in clanning are bad. It breeds high-minded attitudes in players where they come to look down on others.

It makes the clan bad by establishing a poor foundation for clanning.

Howbeit, requirements for joining wilderness teams are necessary.

It is important for teams to be of trusted friends. To disqualify some players from a wilderness trip can be understood to be for the lower-level player's own sake. Also, it might not be fair for a higher-level player to always be seeking to protect the lower-level players continually.

If you have clans that will welcome every level player but have different teams with various levels of qualifications, this would be well acceptable. It would benefit all level players alike and would function for the good harmony and well-balance of a Runescape clan.

Why cannot higher-level players, for example, train lower-level players without simply doing so by raising the bar on them by penalty of exclusion?

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 22 February 2006 - 08:51 PM

[dokimos0rg]

A fair consideration of lower level players is in order for Runescape clans. This would help establish a better reputation for the whole game.

It would also, consequentially, gain a higher respect for high-combat level players as they show a higher-quality response themselves to so-called "noobies".

Unfortunately, it has to take some strong wording on my part to get to be heard out on this. It should not have needed to come to this, but it has.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 22 February 2006 - 09:00 PM

[Res]

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from.
You must understand from -our- viewpoint, however, it comes off very confusing. The whole aspect of the UFF. Also bear in mind we aren't trying to force opinions, but shed light on fuzzy subjects for all to understand.

That being said; Big PKing clans can (in a way) be thought of as nothing but enormous wilderness teams. I haven't really heard of a big PKing clan that does much else than PKing.

Like my recent post comparing it to the army.
Requirements are for the clans safety, for those that want to be in, they need to train and prove it with a combat level that seems adequate.

Now, in saying that big PKing clans do nothing but PK, I mean that as in clan events. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, "Ech".)

I have a few friends in big clans like that. Damage Inc, Dark Slayers, etc.. And they're all nice people for the most part. Only a few I've met have had that real "Elitist Bastard" type of attitude, and when I witnessed it, it was mostly with sarcasm when they used it.

So, let me use DI for an example for a moment.
I used to want to join, and Ech helped me out once he wanted to join (And after he did.) He gave me tips on where to train, all the knowledge I needed to know to join, and other useful things. I just couldn't train enough (Couldn't stay on task) to get there, so I didn't join. I'm also not a pker.

Most people that join these clans are PKers by nature. Something about the personality that makes them that way.

And to quote you on a previous point:

Requirements for joining wilderness teams is necessary. It is important for teams to be of trusted friends. To disqualify some players from a wilderness trip can be understood to be for the lower-level player's own sake. Also, it might not be fair for a higher-level player to always be seeking to protect the lower-level players continually.

That's EXACTLY RIGHT. We're debating the exact same thing, but just calling it different names. The text, that quote, the idea.

THAT is why PKing clans have requirements. PKing clans = big wilderness teams.

I hate to argue on this subject, and I'm only posting this to get a better understanding from both sides. But it looks to me like you have the idea, but just a tad bit of a cloudy idea covering up the big picture.

[adm10012]

im not in uff or seed just used to be but..
a good clan isnt full of lvl 12s or lvl 3s
clans are made for pking and having fun trips to monsters or castle wars
lemme me say again "widli"! hos is a lvl 12 kill a another lvl 80 from another clan in a clan war?
i advise u put some requirments onto ur clan and dont let any no0bs hold u down to becone a good clan break free from them man
a good clan is full of lvl 80s and 100s not 12s and 3s..
and dok u scare me man with all ur slavery ..like from wot are u talking about its only a game ...theres no slavery if u wanan join a lvl 70+ clan train and u will earn ur right to join!

This post has been edited by adm10012: 22 February 2006 - 08:59 PM

[adm10012]

dok i agreee about people being called noobs bad but when a lvl 3 joins a clan its not right
he is useless
he cant go on any pking trips
any wars
castle wars games
dueling matches
kbd
kq
ext.
he is a waste of space

[dokimos0rg]

Yes, I too have met some truly admirable players in these restrictive clans. It is a true pity that they must choose the methods of exclusion.

Good players can go down poor paths. Along with noob begging, exclusive clanning is one of those bad practices which should be avoided.

The problem is that exclusive clanning has led to some bad form in game playing.



Yes! There is a big difference between recommended levels for wilderness teams vs. required levels for clanning. I know it may seem politically correct to those exclusive clans to view such as the same, but truly they are NOT the same.



As for UFF, we came into existance as a response to the closed eyes and mindedness of those who could not see this.

Many took attitudes against the lower-levels, not for something like begging or foolish behavior in the game, but for simply their combat level. Runescape is full of this poison attitude and it is fueled by the restrictive clans.



Having a local group of friends to go pking together is o.k. but creating an exclusive society is disturbing and, even of itself, a casting out of others.

Why not just say keep the whites or blacks out while they are at it? Granted, that is an exaggeration, but just to make the point only.

Good players can go along with a bad crowd and/or be mislead by malformed ideals.

I find respectable gaming attitude here in SeeD which is worthy of being duplicated.

* * *
Addendum:

A level 3 character is NOT useless, although not the best pk partner for higher levels, but as I said, this is NOT about wilderness teams. (So like how many many times must I repeat this without being heard?)

Scouting is useful in the wildy and a level 3 can do that, anyway. Gathering wood and feathers to trade with a fletcher is of value. There are many values of the low level character and they don't necessarily stay low level forever.

[Res]

As a Playermod, I've seen loads of disrespect, so I can understand where you're coming from if not to a higher degree. I've seen it all.

But, to be 100% honest, the people I've seen insult lower level players strictly because of combat level were the people around level... Ohh... 40-50.

I have not ONCE seen any member of a highly known PKing clan talk down to another player solely because of their level. (Usually, they've done something worth being talked down to. I've been known to do it too.)

[dokimos0rg]

The high-minded attitude of players has been a poison spreading through the minds of Runescape players which has developed into a faulty model for clanning.

When United Freedom Fighters started as a clan, we broke the mold on that. As a movement, this new model of free clanning has been duplicating.

SeeD has been developing its own free clanning model for a long time. UFF is a late movement in Runescape answering current issues in this time of Runescape history.

Yes, talking down to lower level players does happen. But "exclusion" is the quiet killer attitude that can hit hard. All it takes is ignoring others and you think their problems and objections don't really exist.

Raising the bar on level requirements, for example, is considered often as a burden, not a blessing. This is what UFF has called "slavery". Yes, another exaggerated term to use for a game, but emphatic to make the point.

* * *

We in UFF, even in this topic of SeeD Forum, have been looked down upon, unworthy to be esteemed of value by some, just because our movement of clans hasn't won anything they personally consider a trophy in battle in Runescape.

How can anyone think this attitude does not exist? Simply is, they don't want to believe it as so. They would rather we shut up and disappear.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 22 February 2006 - 09:25 PM

[Res]

Yes, but if you're actually interested in joining a big clan, once you hit the requirement, the time below was usually worth it.

Alot of people who are in the PKing business are aware of this. They KNOW there are bigger and better clans(/wilderness teams), and they have to be wary of that fact. If it's a burden, it's a burden they chose to carry, like the wilderness is supposed to be. (Example: Losing a fight.)