[Cspace]

Base is supporting what you're doing, but as he said, there indeed is a point where one is only sparking opposition for an idea. Those within warring clans would naturally try to defend them when their ideals are being seemingly attacked. To further your idea, perhaps there should be a subject contrary to one that would spark unjustified return attacks. An idealistic and less objective approach would probably help take your cause further due to the amount of opposition you'd otherwise have to face.

Those who are really involved in warring clans tend to look down upon clans such as SeeD, just as those not involved in warring clans tend to look upon them as elitist. There are respectable clans of all categories, although with the vast number of warring clans and (forgive me) copies of the "top 10", the elitist judgement is not unfounded regardless of what members of such clans believe. Just... let's not over-generalize.

Being involved in RS since 2001 I personally see the origin of all this being centered around the popular RS communities. The "top 10" is nothing more than an invention of the players to rank warring clans, and those clans got publicity in late 2002 and 2003. New and already established clans alike wished to be known, and this was a logical outlet. Along with that, a vast number of players were achieving their goals of high combat levels, and in their self-perceived superiority were blind to the fact that many others were doing the same. As a result of their self-perceived superiority, they were naturally drawn to the warring clans, which directly grew as a result. When more and more clans went for the ill-named "top 10", all clans that did not have a similar goal were pushed into the background and nebulously categorized as "skillers" regardless of what their true goals were. Today many clans are based primarily on numbers and strength, and this tends to bolster elitism.

No, Dokimos' claim is not unfounded at all, but when pertaining to specific clans this is all a generalization and should probably be treated as such.

Let's at least be civil to such clans, and argue over the concept instead of the clan. In the other direction, if the supporters of the warring clans attack you as an individual, they're only vindicating your point.

[Baseballl]

Indeed, and if they don't like what Dokimos is doing then they don't need to join his garden, as you said, and they don't need to even read his posts. If you don't appreciate his opinion, you can simply ignore it or atleast respond in a more respective manner when giving your opinion. It isn't the fact that you shouldn't post your opinion, just don't present it in a negative light. If you don't agree with Dokimos, then debate him, but understand and accept both sides of the argument.

[Res]

• Darkness (me)
• Dave
• Kaiser
• Bigbro
• Bigrat
• Fer
• Final
• Goto
• JGJ
• Minerdamian
• OM
• Reikin
• Star
• Darkie
• Santa
• Asy
• Snowy
• Ruckus
• Spike
• Kimo
  - My additions
• Clock
• MoS
• Serena
• Nate

24 people so far. May not be an extraordinary amount, but it's better than 15. And plenty well people to hold events with and such. Or just plain hang around.
Probably more that I haven't added yet.
GoH allows me to multi-clan also.
And as far as Final, Dave, and Obi (Even though I dunno where he went) go, as long as they're registered and ACTIVE in this community, I think they should remain on that list.

[Cspace]

In addition to the above

- Charlie
- Phieta
- Hyper
- Sparks (I think)
- Nighthawk
- Ratzaroony (I think)
- Zoo
- Dokimos and UFF

Among many others who simply don't post much (and I'm sure I forgot some who are active and do post, I just briefly checked through who was on today). To be active in Runescape and to be active on the forums are two different things. There are those who are active on the site who aren't active in the game, just as there are those who are active in the game and consider themselves SeeDs who don't post on the site. The truth is that not everyone sees a purpose for posting on clan forums, and they shouldn't be completely disregarded. If one doesn't believe me, we have the statistics to support it, there are usually about the same number of guests on as those who are logged in. Also, per day, the total number of unique visitors is more than double the number of users who log in. I also have personal evidence of those who PM/IM me who never post, but I don't have any way of proving that to anyone beyond my word.

Also, don't forget that RS isn't the only game in which we exist, and we do have the general community base of CurvedSpace. Activity in the clan doesn't entirely mean activity in Runescape, because that is a fraction of our overall purpose.

[Dragonman]

Yeah, I'm sure most SeeDs are active in some kind of game, we just don't have anything official set up for 'em, or no events. Though some games are hard to hold events in, you just have quick get-togethers.

I'd say more, but..the topic kind of a flew away and I don't have the greatest attention span this late.

[Goto]

I have to say I don't really agree with the opinions on either side. It's true that clans can still be clans without requirements, and I've never been a particularly big fan of trying to exclude people based on how much time they devote to a game. However I also wouldn't like to think that Dokimos is speaking for me, if they prefer their warring clans and reqs then I have no reason to inflict my views on them. As a movement to get rid of elitism, UFF will not succeed. You cannot force others to change their opinions, especially if they have no respect for you or your actions in the first place. But by simply existing, other like-minded people will see that there is another way to do things. Some of these might join your clan, and some others might be inspired to create their own clans on the same basic principles.

You're going to have to agree to disagree, bickering over your points of view will not help anyone, least of all yourselves. UFF will never shake the foundations of the Runescape clan structure, but I think it's made a difference to those that have been a part of it, and that seems like a noble goal all by itself. Anyone who insists on putting down other ways of thinking and acting is obviously insecure, and I can see that on both sides here.

[©allum]

I play... occasionaly

Yeah.

+1?

[Spikeout]

i dont play lol y m i in there

[rudeboy2k5]

You put on DOR guestbook that you wanted to join DOR, im confused, and now you make a new clan? you only had 1 post?

[Lord Sparks]

woah woah, lets all calm down here.
Cspace is right about pretty much everything, he usually is.

I think anyone who happens to merely have a higher combat level who thinks that he or she has a moral high ground over others is a bit misguided.

Thats very true, especially since last time i checked Cspace has one of the lowest Combat lvls