[Traver]

I haven't attributed a single fault to the divine.  Everything evil in the bible is not because of a god, but because humans put it there. As you said, religion is imperfect.  If this is so, why follow it as if it were?  Doing so only perpetuates its evils.  Granted, religion does do us a lot of good.  There are charities, medical institutions, schools, and many other reasons why religion isn't entirely evil.

Oh, but the Bible is the words of God. The Old Testament is, anyway. Also, charities would be around even without churches. Many organisations that have no connection to anything religious are hosting charity events. Same with institutions and schools.

[Neraphym]

Humans claim the bible is the word of god. God has never, to my knowledge, signed an affidavit declaring the bible to be his word. And yes, other institutions exist that give our charities, medical attention and education... the government, especially so. That does not and should not take away from the fact that religious institutions do it as well.

[ratzaroony]

I checked a few of your examples at random and they're all wrong. First off, you chose a not so reliable source

Let me list them out for you. What your source claims is the passage, and what the passage actually is.

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

Gen 1:31-
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 6:5-6-
And God saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19

Matthew 19:26-
But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Judges 1:19-
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.


18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31

Gen 22:2-13-
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ***, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ***; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid [it] upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering?
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Deuteronomy 12:31
Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.



Now let me explain to you this stuff, since I doubt many will want to read all of that.

1. God wasn't dissatisfied with his works, but with the wickedness of man.
8. God is all powerful. In Judges, it is Judah who couldn't drive them out. Not God. When they say that God was with Judah that tends to mean that Judah had God on his side.
18. That chapter in Genesis is testing Abraham. As you can see in the later part, God has Abraham sacrifice a ram instead. He was testing his faith. That site took that part out of context.


As you all can see, The Bible doesn't contradict itself. This site you found Alpha is obviously not very reliable. Sometimes it takes stuff out of context, other times it just misinterperates the verse, and even in a few cases, it seems they are just making it up. If you want to bash me, thats fine Alpha. But don't you dare bash my religion. Especially not with sites like that one.

I challenge you to go to Blue Letter Bible and find two verses that contradict eachother. Do that and maybe I'll listen to you.

RATZ:1
ALPHA:0

[Neraphym]

1. God wasn't dissatisfied with his works, but with the wickedness of man.

The wickedness of man is God's work. To say otherwise is to say god is not all powerful, which he is, as he is, well, a god.

8. God is all powerful. In Judges, it is Judah who couldn't drive them out. Not God. When they say that God was with Judah that tends to mean that Judah had God on his side.

If god were on the Side of Judah, then Judah would win hands down if god was all-powerful, no? This fault lies within the people who wrote it. It's too difficult to interprit the true meaning here.

18. That chapter in Genesis is testing Abraham. As you can see in the later part, God has Abraham sacrifice a ram instead. He was testing his faith. That site took that part out of context.

I'll give this one to you. The purpose of that site is to discredit the bible. They will bend, twist, manipulate and expose anything they can to support their arguments. When I posted that list, I was almost sure a ton of those were misinterpritations. The fact remains, there are ways to interprit the bible that cause it to contradict itself. Surely, not all 140 some of those were wrong.

I am not "bashing" your religion. Well, I suppose I am to some extent, but my goal is to expose the evils of some of these beliefs, whether they be based in Christianity, Judaeism or whatever. If someone thinks bashing evil is wrong, then I suggest they go join the dark side (we have cookies!).

[Kaezion]

The wickedness of man is God's work. To say otherwise is to say god is not all powerful, which he is, as he is, well, a god.

you forget that an important concept in Christianity is that God gave humans free will to be either good or wicked. the idea is that if He had wanted to, He could make us good, but that would take away our choice to be good. everyone would be good by default, and we wouldn't have the ability to choose good by our own will, and thus we wouldn't be truly good.

If god were on the Side of Judah, then Judah would win hands down if god was all-powerful, no? This fault lies within the people who wrote it. It's too difficult to interprit the true meaning here.

again, you're setting too much store by the Old Testament of the Bible, which is basically the history of a nation written by the people of that nation. there will be some inaccuracies and imperfections, and compounded with the fact that the Bible's been translated many times over through various languages, some of the writings are not going to make much sense, or will be misinterpreted.

I haven't attributed a single fault to the divine. Everything evil in the bible is not because of a god, but because humans put it there. As you said, religion is imperfect. If this is so, why follow it as if it were? Doing so only perpetuates its evils.

exactly!
the Bible, which is basically a collection of stories/accounts written by human hands, isn't perfect. neither is the Christian religion, which was also set up by humans. but these imperfections don't bring Christianity tumbling down - both the Bible and the Christian religion as practiced by humans only serve as a gateway to God for those of us who choose to believe in Him. we don't follow the Christian religion, we use it to follow God.

any supposed "evils" in the Bible or in the religion, as even you have admitted, is due to man. we are not perpetuating the "evils" of anything when we read and practice with an open but critical mind the Bible and the religion. we Christians, at least those of us who somewhat grasp the point of Christianity, set our primary goal as personally getting closer to God, not as adhering strictly, blindly, and mechanically to the little details that were put there by humans. these are the same little details that detractors of Christian religion, paying no attention to its fundamental beliefs, pick at and use to claim that Christianity is a phony because Judah couldn't drive some charioteers out of a mountain valley.

again, pseudo-intellectuals, if even that. i doubt that even 0.1% of the athiests out there who denounce Christianity know anything about its core beliefs.

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 06 January 2006 - 10:31 PM

[Elvenblader]

In my personal opinion I think a lot depends on how you interpret the bible. The Bible was written over 2000 years ago, but it was written on how to follow god's ways. As far as the bible being sexist, I agree that the bible is sexist, but it's a double side. There are good parts and their are bad parts about the bible, but for all the bad that there is in the bible you cant just dwell on what it says and take it to heart. It's about how you interpret it. If you go searching the bible for bad and sexist things then your going to find sexist things. If you read the bible searching for good things you will find good things. If you go in with an open mind not really searching for anything your going to find all sorts of things. So it just depends on what your views are on things like the bible.

Now as far as being a true christian, there is no such thing as being a true christian, you cant follow each and every rule that it says in the bible, it just cant be done. If our say your christian and you follow what it says in the bible and take it to heart and try to do good and such, then I think your christian. It's totally up to you what you want to do. That's what I have to say.

[Aaron]

Very well stated Kaezion, you made some very valid and strong points.

[Neraphym]

you forget that an important concept in Christianity is that God gave humans free will to be either good or wicked. the idea is that if He had wanted to, He could make us good, but that would take away our choice to be good. everyone would be good by default, and we wouldn't have the ability to choose good by our own will, and thus we wouldn't be truly good.

Free will is an illusion. Not a single human has it. I realized this when I took up computer programming and learned how random number generators work. You see, random number generators won't generate a random number, but rather, a seemingly random number. They implement complex procedures based off existing stuff here and there and manipulate and warp it until the number is extremely close to being totally random. Keep in mind, though, that this number is not truly random. It was generated off of existing numbers.

Now compare this to thought. When you make choices, you do pretty much the same thing. Your brain is like a computer generating an answer for your decision. It uses existing experiences, thoughts, morals, desires, and many other factors to determine what it wants. Since there is no randomness involved, then every time you make the choice without the variables changing, you will always make the same decision. Your brain will always return that same value. If you disagree with me, then by all means, go to Vegas and bet $1000 that the dice will land 'heads up' when you're playing blackjack.

I've gone over how we make choices, now to explain why God is ultimately responsible for everything we've done. Our experiences, thoughts, morals, desires and every other variable you could throw into the equation doesn't come from us. It comes from God. All these things are a result of an infinitely complex system of physics that govern our universe. When God set existence in motion, he knew everything that would happen in it from start to finish (this is, of course, if you believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent). No matter how many times God hit the reset button on the universe, the same things would happen over and over again without the slightest change. I cannot say that we have free will in a system like this.

Please, feel free to ask questions about this "theory" of mine. It is devised of pure logic and my knowledge of physics.


And lastly, I've agreed with just about everything else you've said. I have no problem with Christians going out and worshipping their way and doing good for all mankind. I do, however, have an enormous problem with Christians forcing their fascist views (not the good stuff, but the evil, intolerant stuff in the bible) on society.


The contradictions, evils, and just about everything else are why I, myself, am not a Christian (which is kinda what this topic is about).

[Traver]

In my personal opinion I think a lot depends on how you interpret the bible. The Bible was written over 2000 years ago, but it was written on how to follow god's ways. As far as the bible being sexist, I agree that the bible is sexist, but it's a double side. There are good parts and their are bad parts about the bible, but for all the bad that there is in the bible you cant just dwell on what it says and take it to heart. It's about how you interpret it. If you go searching the bible for bad and sexist things then your going to find sexist things. If you read the bible searching for good things you will find good things. If you go in with an open mind not really searching for anything your going to find all sorts of things. So it just depends on what your views are on things like the bible.

Now as far as being a true christian, there is no such thing as being a true christian, you cant follow each and every rule that it says in the bible, it just cant be done. If our say your christian and you follow what it says in the bible and take it to heart and try to do good and such, then I think your christian.  It's totally up to you what you want to do. That's what I have to say.

I totally agree with that. And that is why I think the Bible is useless. If you can conclude anything from it, then why you use it? You can conclude anything without a book.

[Kaezion]

you forget that an important concept in Christianity is that God gave humans free will to be either good or wicked. the idea is that if He had wanted to, He could make us good, but that would take away our choice to be good. everyone would be good by default, and we wouldn't have the ability to choose good by our own will, and thus we wouldn't be truly good.

Free will is an illusion. Not a single human has it. I realized this when I took up computer programming and learned how random number generators work. You see, random number generators won't generate a random number, but rather, a seemingly random number. They implement complex procedures based off existing stuff here and there and manipulate and warp it until the number is extremely close to being totally random. Keep in mind, though, that this number is not truly random. It was generated off of existing numbers.

Now compare this to thought. When you make choices, you do pretty much the same thing. Your brain is like a computer generating an answer for your decision. It uses existing experiences, thoughts, morals, desires, and many other factors to determine what it wants. Since there is no randomness involved, then every time you make the choice without the variables changing, you will always make the same decision. Your brain will always return that same value. If you disagree with me, then by all means, go to Vegas and bet $1000 that the dice will land 'heads up' when you're playing blackjack.

I've gone over how we make choices, now to explain why God is ultimately responsible for everything we've done. Our experiences, thoughts, morals, desires and every other variable you could throw into the equation doesn't come from us. It comes from God. All these things are a result of an infinitely complex system of physics that govern our universe. When God set existence in motion, he knew everything that would happen in it from start to finish (this is, of course, if you believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent). No matter how many times God hit the reset button on the universe, the same things would happen over and over again without the slightest change. I cannot say that we have free will in a system like this.

Please, feel free to ask questions about this "theory" of mine. It is devised of pure logic and my knowledge of physics.

the random value generator you find in computers have been made by humans, no? obviously, then, its ability to generate truly random values is limited by man's capacity to make it so. not to mention, the human brain is far more complicated than any computer we've managed to make so far.

while I am far from being an expert in physics, I do believe that quantum physics (which has been vouched for countless times by experimental results), states that a true randomness does exist. electrons only have a certain probability of existing at a given location. this probability doesn't occur from the ignorance of man, it's just how it is. for example, when you're throwing dice, if you knew precisely how you threw it, how the air molecules would interact with it, how hard the table is, how the dice would bounce, etc., you could accurately predict the number that the dice lands on. however, with electrons, there's nothing of that. it is fundamentally random, with no pre-existing condition that determines where it will "choose" to exist. it's just that, at the macroscopic levels, all of this randomness tends to cancel out somehow. so yes, true randomness does exist.

i think there's a philosopher who postulated the exact same thing you did, that the universe is completely deterministic. he's since been proved wrong.

now, I believe that, since God, according to us Christians, transcends human understanding, there's no way we can trap Him using our logic, as John Calvin once tried to do (he believed that since God is omniscient and knows everything about the future in store for us, our future has already been determined). however, we can say nothing of the true nature of time and thus, the future, because we are tremendously lacking in our understanding of it. possibly, there is a way that God knows everything that will happen while we still retain our free will. I'll admit that it sounds convenient, but these kinds of things are, to say the least, beyond human comprehension, and the best we can do is hypothesize based on what we already know and believe to be true. we know that true randomness exists, and I believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent.

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 08 January 2006 - 12:40 AM

[Goto]

Some interesting points on both sides. While I am indeed an atheist, I attend a christian school and thus have been raised as a christian to some extent. As such I feel I have an adequate understanding of the general principles of Christianity.


As far as the most recent part of this debate goes, dealing with free will vs. an omniscient God, I read something recently you might all find interesting. You can get it free as an ebook here.

[Neraphym]

I'm not sure, nor can it be proven whether or not randomness does or does not exist, but if God is truely omnipotent, would he not already know and control what effect the randomness would have? Maybe existance wouldn't repeat itself over and over again with the existance of randomness, but God would know and ultimately be responsible for the randomness he implemented. Existance is so complex and abstract, that I'm entirely content with being ignorant. Alpha doesn't want his head exploding.

Either way, this is really depressing to talk about.

[Kaezion]

it's already been proven that randomness does exist.
and God, though he may have created randomness, doesn't have to control it if He doesn't want to.

and again, as it appears that you didn't fully read my post, i will explain how i view God's omniscience and determinism. although God knows everything, including the future, there has to be some way that we are allowed to change the outcome of what we do. but, if this is true, it means that there has to be some way that God operates that completely transcends our logic. but seeing as how that is one of the properties that we attribute to God, i'm satisfied with this explanation.

and unlike some "Christians" who are unfit to represent the true Christian faith, I have no problem with you not being athiest (i don't think i care, actually - which is a violation of one of Christianity's precepts, but oh well? that's hypocrisy for you). that being said, if you claim that the little contradictions are what are preventing you from being Christian, why do you not renounce your humanity also? hypocrisy is an undeniable part of our existence as humans.

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 08 January 2006 - 05:44 AM

[Neraphym]

although God knows everything, including the future, there has to be some way that we are allowed to change the outcome of what we do

It sounds like by changing the outcome, you are proving god wrong...

Anyway, it gets so complex and illogical that we really cannot continue and make sense.

I'd rather Christians be hypocrites than be Christians exactly as they should be in the book.

[Kaezion]

quite true. we humans can't logic out how God operates. i too think we are at the end of our discussion now.