[Neraphym]

I completely forgot to mention the omnipotence paradox. It points out the flaw that omnipotence cannot perform actions to limit their omnipotence. "If god is all powerful, can he create a rock so heavy, that even he cannot lift it?"

[Kaezion]

quite true. we humans can't logic out how God operates. i too think we are at the end of our discussion now.

again, for the third time now, I will state that God, by definition, transcends human logic and understanding and consequently there is no way to disprove His omnipotence by way of some paradox that humans have thought up.

since God created the universe and everything in it, including logic, He does not have to be bound by logic; our attempts to use logic on Him are useless.

having said that, since God is NOT bound by the laws of human logic, we can fully state that God, being omnipotent, can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it. but since He is not bound by the fact that He is not supposed to be able to lift it, He can lift the rock. thus God can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, and then lift it. it's a complete and utter violation of logic, but God, having created logic in the first place, transcends it and is not bound by logic.

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 11 January 2006 - 04:55 AM

[Goto]

Something about that last post strikes me as really wrong/paradoxical, but it kind of relies on you having an unshakable faith to begin with I guess. Not an argument that is going to convince anyone of anything, however.

[Ferret Overlord]

I haven't looked at this once since I posted it.

I can't believe it developed.

[Neraphym]

I prefer to think that it is possible for god to limit his own omnipotence, but in doing so, he is no longer omnipotent. He has either yet to do so, and is still omnipotent, or has done so, and lost his omnipotence.

There is a difference between logic and fact. If god creates a rock so heavy, that he cannot lift it, then lifts it, then he has definitely failed in creating a rock that he cannot lift. Just because we are humans doesn't make us automatically wrong.

[Aaron]

We aren't always automatically or totally wrong, but you have to understand that we cannot comprehend God's actions and his own system of things. Our minds simply cannot compute what he can do and cannot do, but we do know he can do anything. Our human logic cannot be applied to God's ways in all circumstances. We just cannot grasp it all.

[Neraphym]

His motivation and methods may be illogical, but that doesn't make the logic itself incorrect. Besides, my statement was such that it explains a loophole to that paradox.

[Kaezion]

If god creates a rock so heavy, that he cannot lift it, then lifts it, then he has definitely failed in creating a rock that he cannot lift.

but it's only according to the logic of our own universe that an unliftable rock is, in fact, unliftable. it is full well possible that, beyond the laws of our universe, the two contradictory (in terms of our own logic) statements of an unliftable rock and the ability to lift it do not necessarily oppose each other.

i actually did some research on this. if you wanted to look at it another way, you could say this: since God is omnipotent, He can break the laws of logic, can't he? thus, He can create an unliftable rock, and then lift it. of course it's in violation of fundamental logic, but an omnipotent God isn't bound within the confines of such logic.

the one problem with this statement is that it, like any other argument we make, is also dependent upon logic to a degree. this is why i believe that it is impossible to accurately describe God's nature, because anything we humans say (at least, if we want to be accurate) must be grounded in logic, while God's nature is fully beyond the logic in which we operate.

Something about that last post strikes me as really wrong/paradoxical, but it kind of relies on you having an unshakable faith to begin with I guess. Not an argument that is going to convince anyone of anything, however.

it should. i'm only making this argument because I believe that God is omnipotent. once you make that assumption, the rest comes quite naturally, i would think - at least for someone who's put some thought into these concepts. i'm not trying to convince anyone of anything - i'm not on a mission to spread Christianity here. i'm simply trying to show people that Christians are not the ignorami that they (we) are unfairly portrayed as, and that there actually is a lot of thought surrounding Christian beliefs.

This post has been edited by Kaezion: 12 January 2006 - 04:13 AM

[Jake]

all i have to say as far as proving the existance of a higher power

(im not saying any particular god or spritual being even though i am christian. Due to the fact that that is a whole other debate i wont involve myself in.)

Is that (im using the big bang as an example) since the universe, all of its contents, physics and the sort. Sprang forth from a unbelieveably dense "thing" so completely compact that even quarks themselves cease to exist .
Something that can be refered to as a "true solid" as i think of it (something so dense that there is no empty space within it).

What im saying is that... where the hell did it come from if there is no god?

Can jesus microwave a bean buritto so hot that even he cant eat it?

This post has been edited by Jake4d1: 12 January 2006 - 09:42 PM

[Traver]

all i have to say as far as proving the existance of a higher power

(im not saying any particular god or spritual being even though i am christian. Due to the fact that that is a whole other debate i wont involve myself in.)

Is that (im using the big bang as an example) since the universe, all of its contents, physics and the sort. Sprang forth from a unbelieveably dense "thing" so completely compact that even quarks themselves cease to exist .
Something that can be refered to as a "true solid" as i think of it (something so dense that there is no empty space within it).

What im saying is that... where the hell did it come from if there is no god?

Can jesus microwave a bean buritto so hot that even he cant eat it?

The logical follow-up question to that question is: "Where the hell does God come from?" Surely someone must have created him as well.

[Jake]

true... but then where did where god came from come from?

[Traver]

To be honest, I don't care.

[Ferret Overlord]

Can jesus microwave a bean buritto so hot that even he cant eat it?

Um, no, cause he's been dead for 2000 years.

[Neraphym]

You see, thats the main problem. None of it matters at all. Everything is so insignificant.

[Kaezion]

The logical follow-up question to that question is: "Where the hell does God come from?" Surely someone must have created him as well.

that question assumes that God is subject to causality (and thus subject to time). however, since God is, by nature, "outside" of time, He doesn't have to have been created by anything. by definition, He simply "is."