[Cspace]

Perhaps sometimes the worst situations can bring about the most understanding in the end, and while there were a few ugly threads today, I think many with whom I talked earlier have come to understand the reality of the situation. With past mistakes forgiven and after some previous ranting to get concerns out, I think many are ready to fix what was broken.

This is for both SeeD and UFF.

This is the thread for positive change. For the merge to mean something, for UFF to be understood, and for SeeD to be unified. Reputations and labels have been thrown around everywhere, especially by those who don't see the other side as individuals but as a group. Isn't that against what SeeD and UFF are about?

Young or old. Newbie or experienced. UFF, SeeD, or otherwise. I thought we were all about the individual, not the collective?

I don't think we've ever had a bigger misunderstanding, fueled by those reluctant to get to know our newer members. I guess UFF should realize that we haven't had a large-scale merge before this, and many members I guess don't know how to react to one.

So let's figure out where to go from here.

This is the constructive thread, not the warning thread, or the argument thread, or the redefinition thread.

Feel free to post about yourself as an individual (nothing personal), or to post about where you'd like to see things go, or heck, even to post an apology if you feel that it is necessary, or whatever else that isn't going to hurt others.

We're all on the same side; I think some have forgotten that before today.

So let's make a positive change a reality, for everyone here.

[Dragonman]

Here's my suggestion for UFF members to help them fit among the SeeD community. I know you might not realize it, but there is plenty of spam in Winhill. It's not an trocious thing, but it can really contaminate threads outside Winhill. Plus, there are many members who get annoyed by it.

Here is a good definition of spam by Phieta (mod here), which is in the General Discussion rules post:

Spamming is defined as "Stupid Pointless Annoying Messages," or in some cases, "Stupid Posts Annoying Moderators." "Stupid" can usually be replaced by "short" as well. In other words, spam is anything unrelated to the topic (For instance, putting "cow poop... natural fertilizer... makes it sound better doesn't it" in a topic about where you work). If it doesn't add to the discussion, it is spam. So don't spam. If the topic itself is spam, it will be closed. If it's just a reply, I'll give you a reminder thingy. If it gets too insane, I'll drop-kick it over to Rylkan and the Insanity Board mods.

The most common types of spam I've seen are one-word posts. Try to avoid those, since it doesn't contribute to the discussion. Plus, people can't get to know you when all you post is 'lol' or 'yup' in response to them, you know?

The moderators can help UFF members get accustomed to the rest of the forums by merging threads when needed, moving things where they belong, etc.. It's not hard to get used to, but remember not to purposefully spam either. :\

[Bodom]

Ill leave UFF alone if Doki can stop painting this stupid picture that all members of clans with requirements purely have the requirements there to leave other people out and purely boast about their levels when its not true or even like that at all.

[philmygroin]

Something About myself Huh? well ok, my true name is Ewan Milton(Scotish background) from Sydney australia, Iam 19 years old and i work at the Sydney international, domestic and control towers at the sydney airport, Im an Air-conditoning/ refrigeration mechanic, I also do freelance drawing/painting on the side to make a few bucks.

There you go you all know me a little better.

[Cspace]

Well, I haven't really said anything about that amidst the recent threads, and I hope I don't offend anyone...

I personally feel that UFF has a few stances on this, and enjoy having a clan without requirements since their own goals aren't the same as those that have requirements. However, I truly feel that they will have an easier time if they're a little more specific when discussing the clans that may arguably be hurting the Runescape community. Clans that SeeD used to name "destroy 'em all" clans I think match what you intend, for clans do exist with single-minded goals that have despotic leaders. They aren't quite mainstream though, and don't normally last for any real length of time (but they do last long enough to cause smaller clans trouble). We've had to deal with clans like them before, and I know that it can be a worthy cause to stand up for the little guy against them, who may not otherwise know how to react.

However, there are clans with requirements with more constructive goals. Many are established to be competative in wars, which many high level players desire. Due to the mechanics of the Runescape game itself, instead of just not being as helpful as a higher level player, lower levels can actually get in the way when facing high level opposition.

They're just clans with different goals. While UFF may be about helping one another and being inclusive to lower levels, as opposed to getting ranked in a ladder somewhere (or something else along similar competative lines), clans that are more competative may have a reason for requiring higher levels. Some of those clans, though, have a "junior" division which allows others to be included without causing trouble in the wilderness. The larger clans may try to appear menacing or dark, but it's often just an image. When it comes down to it, if the leaders abuse the members, they won't usually stick around.

Again, I personally think that maybe "overlord" clans can be better defined, so clans that don't fit with the description won't feel alienated. UFF means well, I don't doubt that, and I know what Dokimos means when he talks about clans being overlords, but others who haven't seen them first-hand would interpret the term as something else.

I think UFF would have an easier time interacting with outsiders, but that is just my opinion.

[Bodom]

Thats a nice explanation and all and i agree with it, but i dont see why everytime you look here there has to be another topic with him stating ALL clans with reqs are taking over the world with slavery ;\?

Fare enough, you dont like requirements, you want to include everyone, good luck with it, why try take down clans which are obviously successful just because youve decided you dont like it?

[Maxi]

Ech, we get the point. You don't like him talking down to them.


Must.. Think.. Constructive.. Thoughts.

[Cspace]

From SeeD and where I think Dokimos is coming from, perhaps the following could be incorporated into the definition of Overlord?

Clans that....

• Preemptively harass clans of significantly lesser power for no logical reason
• Form with the single intent of causing a specific clan trouble (like an "Anti" clan)
• Collectively break the game's rules

That would be an Overlord clan.

Then, on the side, instead of saying how clans with requirements are wrong, focus more on promoting UFF as an inclusive clan. That would show the clan's stance without alienating all clans who have requirements for one reason or another.

I think something along these lines may help UFF function within the general RS community, while still allowing one to express current ideas in a manner that won't spark unnecessary opposition.

Again, just my take from maybe a different perspective.

[dokimos0rg]

UFF do recognize that some exclusive clans are more abusive than others. Oftentimes the attempt is not to be abusive. This is but the consequential general result, though. The overlaying factor that restrictive clanning produces is the fertile field toward disrespect of lower-levels.

UFF will not compromise about its stance, however, we are flexible about our methods.

As for the respected Echliurn, I do appreciate him communicating amongst us for the purpose of roundtable discussion, as long as such discussion is respectable. I understand his clan background and what he thinks of UFF and why. Hence, our UFF cause. UFF addresses a real issue for which I am not a madman to express.

I will agree that UFF will not need to paint a negative picture regarding restrictive clans as soon as the problem of disrespecting lower-level players has ended. Any guess if that will be anytime soon, Echliurn?

If an exclusive clan desired reform they could keep their high level restriction for wilderness teams but open their clan to all levels. This would only serve to enhance the community of their clan and ultimately build their clan stronger.

* * *

I hope you see the point that UFFs stance is a reaction to what the exclusive clans and/or overlording clans have developed as a standard of disrespect in Runescape. UFF will resist this by exposing the model of exclusive clanning for the faults it has.

If you want exclusive clans to be respected, let them show likewise respect for others. UFF is not condemning clans by name. We do at times address particular issues but we are not out to bash clans by name. UFF has shown more respect to other clans by name than those clans ever show to us or to the players in our UFF Movement.

There has been no restriction for UFFs to go and join wilderness teams together with other clans. It is only that we do not recognize players as UFFs if they are a member of a restrictive clan. We do not abandon our values or cause. Hence, there is much we can do together. Howbeit, we do not appreciate the duplication of the restrictive/exclusive clan model, hence, we tend to find others who stand with us for the freedom of Runescape.

* * *

Therefore, the difficulty for UFF to work together with others is really not due to us of UFF. It is due to the restrictions and exclusions and practices of overlording of other clans. UFFs are not going to think a clan is cool when they are shut out of it as disqualified. If someone thinks its cool, that player is not a UFF.

"Cool" is accepting of others with "I'm o.k., you're o.k.", which UFF is accused of not being, but we are cool. The opposite of "Cool" is "Gay (exclusive)" where people make their own little private clubs and leave out others, having hang ups. This is how I have come to understand the use of the words "cool" and "gay" for many years. I think the meaning of these terms in that usage got lost by the early 1980s by many, though.

* * *

If you understand what in the world has been referred to as slavery and how some have been led into it, my use of the word regarding the restrictions and control methods of a number of clans fits well. The imagery may not be flattering to other clans but it is applicable.

An "overlord" clan is a clan that seeks to control its members. A player who is an "overlord" is one who seeks or does control others. This happens in Runescape clans. It is a bad example for leadership.

Respectfully submitted to you for your consideration in what may be the hottest of Runescape topics. As Echliurn I believe well represents the exclusive PK clan communities. I would be also interested to discuss with a representative of the Anti-PK communities also as this issue concerns them also.

* * *

Let us indeed work together for the good future of SeeD and of Runescape. At this phase of working together, UFF seeks to be recognized as a legitimate and respectable political stance in Runescape equally among these others.

We do understand players are free to do as they will in Runescape. Our side had been dealt out of this arena in the past, now we wish to sit at the table with the others. We may not be exclusive nor anti-pk but we do have a stance which does represent a good population in Runescape as many are unclanned.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 15 June 2006 - 12:21 AM

[Bodom]

Ok i really aint in the mood to read it all but i skimmed some of it.

How are we disrespecting lower levels? There is plenty of clans aimed for the lower levels of runescape and once they train up they happily jump ship for another clan.

If people as a low level think they are disrespected why do clans like DI have hundred so flevel 100s etc willing to level up just to try for DI?

Sorry but we dont disrespect lower levels and its sad if they take it that way, we just want to have people around the same level in our clans so its of use in the wild, said before ill say it again, level 40s and level 120s dont mix in the wild.

I seriously think you just got declinded from a clan and cant accept it lol.



Though why do you have to bring down and badmouth clans with requirements? Majority of them are doing alot better than UFF seems to be doing, you'd be less embarrasing if you just dropped the whole free the world attitude.

This post has been edited by Echliurn: 15 June 2006 - 12:25 AM

[Asadorn]

If an exclusive clan desired reform they could keep their high level restriction for wilderness teams but open their clan to all levels. This would only serve to enhance the community of their clan and ultimately build their clan stronger.

lol they wouldn't have to mix in the wild.

[Bodom]

If an exclusive clan desired reform they could keep their high level restriction for wilderness teams but open their clan to all levels. This would only serve to enhance the community of their clan and ultimately build their clan stronger.

lol they wouldn't have to mix in the wild.

I dont know if you guys have seen the general Runescape population with rs2, its mainly idiots and hackers and little kids thanks to miniclip and i dont see my clan being anymore successful because im letting them in because some 40 year old says so.

Sorry but we like to keep our clan full of mature people and know that they can pk.

And clans like DI, RSD, DS etc have the best communities of all and theyve got reqs. Doki if you dont like it, dont do it, just dont make up lies and ram it down peoples throats.

This post has been edited by Echliurn: 15 June 2006 - 12:43 AM

[Asadorn]

If an exclusive clan desired reform

Sorry but we like to keep our clan full of mature people and know that they can pk.

And clans like DI, RSD, DS etc have the best communities of all and theyve got reqs. Doki if you dont like it, dont do it, just dont make up lies and ram it down peoples throats.

If you don't want it then that's your choice, don't reform. We do not wish to ram anything down anyones throats, you have the choice to come here and read about what we are and what we do.

This post has been edited by Asadorn: 15 June 2006 - 12:49 AM

[Cspace]

Well, I do agree with Asadorn on this. UFF isn't forcing the rest of SeeD to agree, and if one can't accept their ideas, perhaps one would be better off just associating with what they do like if his/her suggestion isn't accepted. To my knowledge, a lot of this (if not all) is kept within Winhill Garden's forum, so if one isn't active here there wouldn't be much of an issue to get stressed about.

Outside of Winhill, they can easily interact with SeeD realizing that maybe our clan is a little more diverse when it comes to ideals. I don't really see it as something to realistically get in the way of positive relations.

[Bodom]

If an exclusive clan desired reform

Sorry but we like to keep our clan full of mature people and know that they can pk.

And clans like DI, RSD, DS etc have the best communities of all and theyve got reqs. Doki if you dont like it, dont do it, just dont make up lies and ram it down peoples throats.

If you don't want it then that's your choice, don't reform. We do not wish to ram anything down anyones throats, you have the choice to come here and read about what we are and what we do.

Hi im pretty sure most of dokis posts go on about how hes going to change runescape, im pretty sure thats forcing and ramming things into peoples throats.