[Asadorn]

Before the merger and before we started getting a huge wave of new members, we did have these, although after the merger many of the people who would do these things either quit the UFF or Runescape altogether. However, we have been rebuilding a lot with the help of SeeD and hopefully we can become better than we once were. As you can see we have been having more and more clan events recently and the newsletter I think will help a lot. I look foreward to full unity with SeeD and UFF, it'll mean a lot less typing for a lot of people. =p

As for repeating our values, this was done because of all the people not understanding them lol and i'm sure that we will have to repeat them again in the future.

[Dragonman]

Actually, you don't need to repeat values, because they are the same as SeeD's. Working together with SeeD will benefit us both. Try not to classify events to UFF, have them open to those who originate from SeeD, as well. If we are united, why keep describing ourselves are two different clans? UFF would benefit because they now have SeeD to support them, and SeeD will benefit because we need a boost in our activity in RuneScape.

[Asadorn]

Anyone is free to attend our events, just let us know if you're comming so we know who you are.

Anyways, the reason I think we will have to state them again is because there will be new members who join just to join a clan, without even looking at the values. Those are also the people who end up causing the most problems.

I refer to us as UFF because that is what we are. We are also SeeD, but the UFF is also a seperate movement because of our values and goals, and if we just said that we are SeeD then people would probably get a little confused. lol.

[Kimojuno]

> SUMMARY AT BOTTOM <

Even though I have been inactive and do not fully understand everything that has been going on andor said, I have decided to reply to this topic, and so if anything is wrong out of ate andor already been said, please ignore it and move on.

----

I have NO problem with UFF nor their values, however about repeating your values, why? I notice you have a pinned topic, in this forum, pointing to http://dokimos.org/runescape which mentions your values. It might be best just to link to the values, but that's completely up to you guys, and I really don't see how pointing or typing the values makes a difference (other then the work on your fingers) .

And as for problems with clans with requirements, some clans are purely PK (Player Kill) clans, which makes it perfectly understandable that they need higher levels. Like Echliurn was stating it would be hard for a clan with mostly 100+ characters, to PK with people levels 3-69, while 70s+ could and would be easier it wouldn't be the best situation.

It is also not the best situation to always invite people, of all levels, especially when you want mature people. Echliurn also stated this, I think we can all agree that not everyone is mature, and some are more mature then others. I am not 'coming down' on anyone, however I am simply stating facts here, there are times where level based clans do come in handy.

Now on the other hand some people do feel 'left out', while others really don't care and work on their levels until they can join the level-based clan, however are all level based clans 'evil' andor 'bad'? No! I know dokimos was not saying all clans are bad, however I can how people got this idea, especially if they were not reading all his posts. However even those who keep up with such posts, still don't grasp what UFF is really about, in many ways it is like SeeD as in accepting all people from all backgrounds.

However unlike SeeD UFF seems to come down on clans with requirements, although SeeD (and Cspace) have previously mentioned clans qith requiremets, UFF seems to make it their goal to end such clans. I do not know whether this is on purpose or not, but this is how many (from SeeD and other clans, in general) seem to take it, so if you would follow my advice I'd suggest explaining it in a way more people can get it. I am not trying to make fun, come down, or any other such things; I am simply stating how many seem to be taking this.

----------

On the reverse side, as already mentioned, I think people need to look around at UFF a bit more. I agree that level clans sometimes do seem 'mean' from some points of view, so I understand why someone would take it that way, however if people got to know the leaders they wouldn't take it that way. A lot of the eladers, of some clans I won't mention, are just mean and everyone knows it. However not ALL people of high levels are bad, in fact a lot more are mature, although like lower levels it depends on the person. We cannot, and should not, include maturity while speaking about levels. A persons maturity is NOT dependent on their level.

So in conclusion, I think people should respect others, and I am not saying anyone here is not. I am just stating that if you don't know the people don't speak badly about them, and dokimos I think you should check higher level requirement clans, then get to know the leaders -- I'm sure there are people here who could get you added as a 'Clan Friend' or whatever. Just so you could get to know the people behind said clans, that way you can then make conclusive comments and decisions about them.

And before I forget, there are many clans that state you have to be 40+, are these bad clans because of the requirements? What exactly makes them bad, I do not know whether or not someone said they were bad, and I doubt someone did but I do know people are thinking this. I am only stating what people think now, I am not coming down on people -- at least I am trying not to, and in the end like I said before it's a game..it doesn't matter. I think people should just stick with what they know, so if you want to speak about UFF get to know them, and if you want to speak about other clans get to know the leaders/members of them.

-- Jeff

SUMMARY:

Basically I think people should respect all members of runescape, people should get to know the people behind the characters, and no I do not think level requirements are wrong. In fact in certain types of clans it makes perfect sense, runescape was originally designed for PK and so straight PK-Only clans make sense with level requirements, however clans that are more communities andor a place to do other things besides PK all depends on the clan owner(s)/leader(s).

I also think in some cases higher levels do think badly about lower levels, but look at what they have to deal with, especially the beggers and just like in real life -- the bad people make it worse for the good people. Just look at Airport Security, and how we all have to be dealt with, just because of a few people? It's just like that on RS, take this as you will, but take it nonetheless.

[tom/halo/emily]

i get more begging from highish lvls than low levels the real low levels dont begg its the higher levels trying to get easy money

[Bodom]

i get more begging from highish lvls than low levels the real low levels dont begg its the higher levels trying to get easy money

lol?

[dokimos0rg]

Anti-PK clans don't have junior and senior members, at least not generally. They have outcast the junior members in a lower clan, thus perpetuating the evils of elitism. The elitism causes instant disrepect to the so-called "juniors". It would be good if these were indeed one clan among the Anti-PKers, but it is not the case.

Again, UFF also believes it acceptable to defend innocents in the wilderness, if that's your thing, but we are not in favor of imposing rules on the wilderness in Anti-PKing.

* * *

Oh, so some expect UFF to reform. Then you'll have us to conform to the ways of the elitist clans to accept their rejections of the lower-levels or those who don't keep up with them? This we will not do.

We will not conform to the ranking of clans by how high level the membership is. We will not conform to controling rules, raising bar, and making restrictions, and build elitism by exclusion.

We of UFF believe it is the exclusive clans that need to reform.

* * *

UFF needs to repeat its values continually to keep the movement on track verses the popularly spread poison values of elitism clanning. We will not just shut up and stay quiet like others who wish to promote themselves over others desire.

In this topic about working together we are still finding posts where UFF is expected to be the one to unilaterally change and that about our major stances. This is revolting and not working together on the part of some of these others.

They are being stubborn in their own ways not realizing the damage they do to Runescape and its players. We United Freedom Fighters do expect equal recognition for our polity just as Exclusive PKers and Anti-PKers have.

* * *

If exclusive PK clans and Anti-PK clans can work together in SeeD, why not us also? We expect equal rights in a respectful manner to our own values.

UFF does not force players to join our movement as it is against our values to do so. We believe in player freedom. But in the same turn we defend our own freedom.

The gauntlet has been thrown down against disrespected lower-level players and we've been struck many times. We do not force players to join us but we do expect the transgressing political parties to sit down at the negotiating table with us if they desire hostilities to end.

UFF did NOT start the hostilities. We responded only to them and have done so in a war to end such hostility.

* * *

This topic is not about reforming UFF. This topic is about how we can work together. Stick to the true issue, please. Let other clans change their methods as we have been changing ours already coming into SeeD.

UFF does not expect exclusive PK clans to drop their focus of PKing. Nor do we expect Anti-PK clans to give up defending innocents in the wildy. In return, UFFs focus should not be sought for to be changed. It is not going to change and we will not cave into pressure about it.

Consequentially, UFF does PKing in its cause for freedom as a demonstration of our protest against being disrespected. It is another key way we have of being heard. We are United Freedom Fighters, therefore, we do fight for freedom instead of just talk about it.

* * *

There is much pretence that presumes that exclusive clanning does not promote disrespect toward others. Although disrespect may not be intended, it does come about as the result. The faulty model of exclusive clanning is the culprit and catalyst for this, therefore, reform it.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 15 June 2006 - 03:33 PM

[Chaz P K]

omg...im spposed to read all that? i red the first line.

you say that they force you into a juniour clan? it is a persons choice to if he wishes to go into that clan. they dont suddenyl becom traitors like in UFF. clans with reqs are often alot better then clans without, purely because they are all around the same level.

[dokimos0rg]

omg...im spposed to read all that? i red the first line.

you say that they force you into a juniour clan? it is a persons choice to if he wishes to go into that clan. they dont suddenyl becom traitors like in UFF. clans with reqs are often alot better then clans without, purely because they are all around the same level.

Chaz, if you did read the first line, you certainly did NOT understand what I posted. I said...

Anti-PK clans don't have junior and senior members, at least not generally. They have outcast the junior members in a lower clan, thus perpetuating the evils of elitism.

I said, "They HAVE their junior members in a lower clan".

I did not say that "They FORCE you into a juniour clan".


These do not mean the same thing and your entire commentary is a foolish reply because you would not be willing to comprehend even the first thing I said.

You don't understand what is going on, because you don't take time to understand.

No, you are not expected to read all that, LOL! This is not all about you, Chaz, and how you feel rejected because you bash everyone with your language.

* * *

In UFF, if a player desires to join another clan that is exclusive, they are not thus branded a traitor, if they do so honestly and respectfully. If we find they do such secretly, they may be doing so as a traitor.

If they go join another clan, resigning from UFF respectfully, we say in UFF that the player resigned respectfully. If they resign disrespectfully, we recognize the disrespect.

* * *

As for you, Chaz, you got pushy to recruit out of us for a new clan you started that has not been recognized in the UFF Movement. Your conduct was that unbecoming a UFF in rejection of our values of unity. We only recognize you for what you do. Again, you cursed UFF members, so you only reaped what you sowed, and that is why they dislike you.

Again, this topic is not about you personally, Chaz, so don't get all upset.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 15 June 2006 - 04:41 PM

[Bodom]

PK clans and ANTI PK clans work together in SeeD well because the PKers arent forcing the ANTIPKers to change, you're preaching your values demanding we change to fit your needs, which seems to be a couple of level 70s mad at the world lol ;\

[Skyone]

I mean if you were to change your requirements to join UFF, why not change it so people don't have to be lazy. You guys should at least increase the requirement level to the 30's, 40's, or even 50's. It's not that hard to train and I don't mean this in a bad way....but, I think this will only make people more lazy thinking they won't have to train and join a clan as a level 3 with a mix of level 60's, 70's, 80, and 90+'s.

[dokimos0rg]

Echliurn, UFF does not force clans to change. We fight for the cause in Runescape to protest the abuses that restrictive clans generate. Our words speak to address the issue.

PK and Anti-PK Clans have had and do have words against each others' polity. It is only that now these are used to each other. You may not like the United Freedom Fighters movement for free and open clanning, but we are entitled to this same kind of respect without being continually being esteemed as the outcasts.

So, how does what you say help build the future together for us to do something constructive, Echliurn? UFF is seeking to do this here as Cspace has posted.

Echliurn, you simply do not want our politics around Runescape at all and you are not willing to give us respects as equals. You've posted in UFF at different times to humiliate and attempt to squelch our movement. You express the very kind of symptoms of disrespect that UFF protests.

We are noobs in your site because of our level, as you yourself have posted before in other topics. Yet, you deny that restrictive clanning has anything to do with disrespect. Honestly, you have been disrespectful and you are an example of that same kind of disrespect to which we protest. You have been notably abusive, Echiurn my friend, yet you are in denial of it.

* * *

Moo, the method of training by "raising the bar" on requirements is a slavery in Runescape. It even breaks apart friends. Training is better accomplished through "by-example" leadership.

The ends doesn't justify the means. Just because a player may get to higher levels faster by restricting clanning to include only higher levels, doesn't make it right.

This would be better accomplished perhaps by having different level wilderness teams rather than creating exclusive clanning.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 15 June 2006 - 05:07 PM

[Baseballl]

From what I've seen, most people are basically saying "STFU DOKI!". Honestly, the whole idea of repeating the values and your opinion is getting old. You may think that SeeDs started the fight, but take a step back and see how many people you tick off when in every one of your posts you put down requirement clans, you push your values, and you act like RS is your life and not a game. I personally think you need to stop being so pushy with your "values". If you don't agree with competitive clans, then fine. Don't force everyone in UFF to believe what you believe. These so called values you have are what started the fighting, not SeeDs. We are sick and tired of seeing you blab on and on about your values and your beliefs. We know what they are and if we seem to forget (if anyone really gives a damn), then we can look at one of your MANY posts or pinned topics about it. I just don't see why you have to continually complain and moan about clans. You have your beliefs, but you need to keep pushing them and forcing it on others. Your motto is "Be free and be yourself", but that can't happen when you keep telling everyone what to believe because your opinion is that req. clans are bad. Sure, Runescape will have some snobby people out there, but don't take individual situations and apply it to the whole group (wow, I've heard that before!). If you want SeeDs to see UFF members as individuals and not a group (making generalizations), then you need to treat other clans in that manner also. If you don't want your clan blasted for its beliefs, don't blast other clans due to theirs.

[Chaz P K]

ye thats it basically. im trainin to join wg's juniour clan cos im an anti pker still. i will never change just to be a part of uff

[dokimos0rg]

Clanleaders lead and guide their clans. I have been leading by communicating UFF values here in the UFF Sub-forum. I am not denied the right to this. It is, Miami Man, that you too wish to deny us our freedom of speech.

You may think that we are pushing our values on you, but we have for the greatest part been doing this in our own sub-forum here. While guys like you actually and truly push your contrary values of exclusive clanning on us. This has been done to us continually.

We in UFF are tired of hearing all this exclusive clanning preaching also but we do not deny others right to freedom of speech as you would have toward us.

UFF has nothing to apologize for in this, Miami Man.

Honestly, do you think there is no one that you and others don't "tick off"?

* * *

What you post here, Miami Man, is not constructive.

My words to explain UFF values as they apply to different situations is well suited. It is only that you don't like it. You can stop coming to the Winhill Garden and stop reading it, but that isn't the issue really, is it now? It isn't really just about my posts.

You are afraid of change, Miami Man, and so are others. You don't want change in clans nor change in Runescape. However, change is inevitible and this change is happening.

You have your movement. We have ours. If you want mutual respect, we are willing to show that, but we are not backing off of our stance for the freedom of Runescape as likely you won't back down to defend the exclusive clanning that many preach.

* * *

The topic here is not about UFF in SeeD nor if UFF is going to be redefined. UFF is not changing from its founding standpoint for player freedom. The issue of this topic is moving ahead constructively together.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 15 June 2006 - 05:25 PM