[Cspace]

I may see tanks differently than some, because when I hear "tank" I think of other games such as EQ and SWG where a tank's role is to keep enemies from attacking others in the group. I guess I don't see a tank as a damage-dealer but as a damage-mitigator, which raises the question...

Without hate-management abilities like in most other MMORPGs, how can a tank most effectively keep aggro in GW? A tank here can also do somewhat significant damage, but I still see mitigation as a tank's specialty. Just keep in mind that most tanks are probably warriors, but not all warriors are necessarily tanks.


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Here are some things I wonder, or would consider...

• How does weapon speed affect hate gain? Could a sword or axe generate more hate than a hammer?
• In comparison to weapon speed, how does weapon damage affect hate gain? Is it significant enough for swords or hammers to be more reliable than an axe when it comes to tanking?
• Do DoT skills generate hate over time, or just an initial roll of it?
• Do heal-over-time skills transfer hate over time from an ally, or just an initial roll of it?
• Do attributes affect how much hate a skill can generate?
• Perhaps a W/Mo can be built to be a hate machine with a high healing attribute and group-healing skills.
• Is a pet's standard hate gain equal to a player's?
• Exactly how much does aggro stick? If a mob aggroes a player, how much extra hate is needed to pull it to the warrior?
• Does exploiting a hex on a mob increase the hate gain for those attacks?
• If a player makes the first attack on a mob that is not otherwise aggroed, is there a hate bonus?
• How much hate, if any, is generated when the first player walks within a mob's aggro radius?

[Neraphym]

From my experience, 'hate' can only be generated in an aggro zone. If you are outside this zone and the monster has no hate towards you, it is as if you don't exist. Hate either dissapates over time or if you put enough distance between you and the monster's patrol 'flag' thing. I've noticed when running with increased speed, monsters will attack me for a second, then run back to their 'flag' and stop attacking me, even while I'm still passing through their aggro circle.

Alternatively, I've found that moving around in battle will actually increase aggro towards you, and that monsters tend to attack characters with the lowest maximum healths. This makes them attack the squishies more than the tanks. Monsters often switch targets after a while, either because something else built up enough hate or they are programmed to avoid commiting to a target that will receive extra healing and protection from monks. Area of Effect, Damage over Time (AoE DoT) skill are very effective at breaking aggro away from that area.

The thing I dislike about Guild Wars is how the tanks cannot hope to tank without exploiting flaws in the programming. In places like the Domain of Anguish, it is impossible to win without exploiting these features. Linear aggro management seems very effective. This is where your team lines up perpendicular to the monsters. The tank aggros, and everyone else runs back and forth along the line, never moving side to side. This effectively keeps aggro on the tank, as long as no one is camp casting.

[Dragonman]

I'm in the gray-area here.. what is "hate"?

[Rylkan]

Basically boils down to making the AI attack you only. So a warrior in EQ could use a skill to make the monsters pay attention to the tank more than the other teammates.

[Dragonman]

Ah.. in any case, when I used my tank, I would experiment with using cripple, especially on the melee enemies. It slows them to the point where they may have to attack you (the tank). And yes, I believe health is a factor in what makes the enemies attack you. I just remember that ones running away tended to get attacked, though.

[Cspace]

Oh, sorry about the confusion here...

Hate is the variable that determines who a mob will aggro. It's probably not talked about much in GW, but it's really important in some other games like EQ where a tank's common role is to protect the group. A mob will have a certain amount of hate toward each of the attacking players, but depending on what a character does, it will go up and down for everyone. In some games there are abilities that have the single purpose of increasing hate (like a taunt), or the purpose of decreasing hate (which is useful for the usual scout-type classes).

This thread is mostly about how to manipulate the mobs' hate in GW where those abilities don't really exist.


Aggro, on the other hand, is just when a mob decides to shift its focus to a player.

[Goto]

I think differentiating between the terms can cause some confusion within a game that doesn't really have a visible mechanism for 'hate' as such. Ah well, as long as it's realized that it's simply a distinction that we're making for the sake of the discussion.

I agree that if a character is the main tank, mitigation should be the focus (at least in areas where the enemies are capable of applying enough pressure to overwhelm the monks and kill squishies). That being said, the 'tanking' classes (primarily Warrior or Dervish) are also quite adept at being frontline attackers aiming to take out squishies on the enemy side. In that case they only need enough mitigation to keep themselves alive with possibly limited support, if they're forced to overextend out of friendly monk range.

Regardless, we're talking about tanking. I can't really speak for Hard Mode since I haven't played it much, but aggro in GW does not seem particularly sophisticated from what I've seen. Then again they've made numerous changes to how the AI responds, so my information is perhaps a bit out of date these days. Health, Armour level and class all seem to play factors in determining who will get aggro, priority target probably being a monk. Haven't seen anything to indicate that skill choice or weapon type plays a part. I'm not sure that DoT actually generates 'hate' as such, or whether it just causes a monster to break its target and re-evaluate what is around it. I use a certain amount of AoE DoT while nuking, and while monsters will move about a bit and settle on new targets, since I'm further away I usually stay ignored. The majority of the time the AI will stick with a target even if it's not having too much success, unless they're disrupted in some way. This doesn't always seem to be the case when first pulling a mob though, so possibly there's a delay after being aggroed, and they only select targets when closer to attack range?
I'm a little divided about whether moving will increase or decrease your hate. I mean anything moving will automatically take critical hits, so it would make sense for enemies to get in some easy hits against such a target. However running seems to be a pretty quick way to break aggro if there are easier to catch targets nearby.

Tanks should be able to make use of the terrain around themselves. Whenever possible attack from elevation, your ranged allies will have a greater range and attacking from height has bonuses attached to it. Additionally it is sometimes possible to bottleneck enemies, since they will always take a direct path to their target. They'll move around natural obstacles, but if you're blocking that path (using a wall at an angle, for example) you can often get the aggro yourself. Tanks will also usually be leading a party, make sure to always have a longbow for pulling in case you don't have a ranger along. Since tanks are usually melee classes and they need to be the closest to enemies to attack, they require the greatest amount of situational awareness. Be very mindful of your aggro circle, your party won't be pleased if you chase an escaping monk and pull another mob back to the party. Also try to be careful how far forward you go regardless, tanks are still dead meat if they get out of range of healing and your monks are probably staying well back behind the front lines.


In addition to the questions that Cspace was asking, one or two more. How does the AI respond to enchants/stances/etc. that cause blocking, or for attacks to miss?

[Moogalite]

I believe that GW system is a much more loose aggro system based on classes and HP e.g. Monks and Elementalists then it goes on the lines of Mesmer/Necromancer, ranger and warrior. By staying out of the tanks aggro circle you do not gain health once he has taken sufficient hits. I'm thinking on the lines of 55/SS here. If the tank body blocks the monsters they don't often move in unless the SS moves in early and starts casting. If you stay right on the edge of the tank's aggro circle you gain minimal threat but as the tank is the closest to the mobs he gain the most threat per second.
Therefore he maintains aggro.

[Cspace]

After doing some spontaneous experiments in Ascalon with Neraphym and Rylkan (thanks a lot! ), it seems that hate could be a factor, but it seems to easily be overrided. It is possible for a mob to start focusing on someone to the point where it ignores everyone else within reason, but we could only reliably do this by allowing the mob to attack one person for a while. HP wasn't a likely factor because I healed the one who the mob was attacking, and the mob would do very little damage to begin with.

Escape (an elite), as well as spirits, seemed to influence a mob's target more than other skills. I spammed Healing Breeze but it didn't easily draw aggro, which I thought was interesting.

The most interesting thing we found is that it seems that a mob has two targets. I got a gargoyle to attack me for a while, then Neraphym got into melee range and I backed up. The gargoyle would use physical attacks on Neraphym, but all spells came in my direction. This may make tanking by its common definition quite difficult in GW.

However, it seems feasible for a tank to keep melee mobs from other characters. Mobs with spells or ranged weapons will probably be the issue.

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Whether or not hate exists in GW has yet to be determined, but regardless, it's interesting to experiment on the AI to see how it works. If hate doesn't exist, which is possible, we could find another way to tank by understanding how the AI makes its decisions.

[Neraphym]

We were all rangers. More experimentation should be done with us using control classes. We can make a science project out of it.