[Baseballl]

I don't like requirement clans, I've never been in one, and I don't even play Runescape anymore. I'm trying to let you know why so many people are upset with you, but you don't seem to want to understand that. You preach and preach about your values, but in all fairness, you don't have any. You play a game where competition is measured. The goal in the game is to raise your levels and also have fun. Some people enjoy clans like SeeD and UFF, some enjoy exclusive clanning. You need to understand that it is their choice which route they want to take, or even both. However, you shouldn't be insulting and putting down that type of clanning because you don't agree with it. Some people enjoy the competition and sense of pride in joining a clan like that, who are you to say they can't do that?

Life is about requirements and goals if you haven't figured that out already. Certain jobs require certain education and standards, certain degrees, etc... Are you against those who get an education to get a better job or join a more exclusive company (hence, gaining levels to enter a certain clan)?

I'm proud of my accomplishments as a person in life from sports, to college, to raising a family. Is it bad if I join a country club, a running club, a yachting club, a car club, a monetary club, etc...? Am I not allowed to show my accomplishments in life? I'm just drawing a parallel here for you to understand, maybe you will and maybe you won't. I just want you to see what is ticking people off. If you really want to end the fighting, you need to see the source. Step back and take a look at why people are upset with you and UFF, and the opposing side can do the same. I'm not the one who frequently reads the UFF boards and insults people, but I do see what is going on.

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Both sides in this matter need to make lists of what the other doesn't like about them and see how they can change to be accepted. If UFF isn't willing to make changes in their behavior that is making SeeDs upset, and likewise, then you shouldn't be here. In order to function as one, something has to give. The problem is coming from, and for the most part, Dokimos' expression of his values and opinion on exclusive clanning. Not mentioning that or putting it aside would help the situation. If you don't approve of your members joining that type of clan, put it in the rules, but you don't need to go on a crusade to end it because it won't happen.

[dokimos0rg]

You don't seem to understand, Miami Man, that it is we of lower-levels who have been insulted and put down because of the works of exclusive clanning.

We are allowed to compete also and not necessarily by the system invented by exclusive clan overlords. They play their way. We play ours. We can accept they are free to do so but we are not required to esteem them cool for it.

Runescape doesn't have a goal. It is a Role Playing Game where players can make their own goals. It is intended for recreation and entertainment.

Our form of clanning which receives all levels has been criticized because we don't raise the bar and do what other clans do. If they can criticize our way of clanning, why cannot we do the same?

* * *

If we think or say that restrictive clanning is building clubs where only the gay players are invited, we are entitled. Entitled, just as others who criticize our way of clanning are entitled to put down lower-level players. They have done this for a long time and spoiled the reputation of Runescape with it.

Well others may think that life is NOT about requirements and goals and that you apparently haven't figured that out already, Miami Man. You just have your take about it thinking so. You are entitled to your opinion about life and so is everyone else.

In life there are freedom movements from oppression. This is part of life, too. Oh yes, the oppressors always believed that others didn't have equal or the same rights as them. Your rhetoric, Miami Man, resembles theirs.

* * *

You may not be the one who regularly insults us, Miami Man, but you apparently agree with them enough to think that we are the ones who started the fire but we didn't. It is only that you have locked yourself into a particular viewpoint about a game you no longer play.

New politics has arisen in Runescape. This has happened before. Now it happens again.

* * *

Miami Man, you are giving us an ultimatum acting like an overlord to tell us what to do herein. We do not accept your ultimatum. Who died and made you king?

You are telling us to make rules. Again, you are pushing the exclusive clanning ways. We are UFFs. We have values of freedom. We have no rules.

A UFF does not approve of exclusive clanning. For a UFF to join or lead an exclusive clan is a contradiction of our values. We recognize SeeD Members may multiclan with restrictive clans, but this is not the conduct of a UFF.

Our values mention...

We are the indomitables and exhort others to depart from the standard model of many Runescape clans that is based in autocracy and places restrictive rules on others that exploit players through dominating rulership.

Anyone can join whatever clan they like. It is simply that if a player joins a restrictive clan, they are not recognized as a UFF. This does not necessarily effect their status in SeeD Clan. UFF accepted that. UFF is not required to recognize those who have membership in exclusive clan as those recognized in the UFF Movement. This is impossible for us.

Miami Man, stop trying to control us. Weren't you rebuked by Cspace once on this? Now you wish to threaten us to change or leave???

If others don't wish to reform, let us then be respected enough for our polity within this subforum of SeeD. Otherwise, we will have been given every reason to post more rapidly elsewhere in Runescape forums also of our values.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 15 June 2006 - 06:06 PM

[Skyone]

I mean, changing the requirements of your clan by just a tiny bit wouldn't hurt now would it?

[Neilslayer91]

Omg I was gone for five days and all this bull still going on?

[Nate]

If a clan had a requirement of level 4 would it be considered a gay club?

[dokimos0rg]

UFF does not have requirements. We simply recognize who is a UFF and who isn't. Building requirements goes down the path of restrictive clanning and doesn't stop at an easy level to attain. It results to build into exclusive clubbing and snobbish attitudes.

UFF did change its methods as we moved into SeeD. If anyone wishes to multiclan with an exclusive clan they are free to do so, but they only will not be recognized as a United Freedom Fighter.

None of this is constructive for SeeD nor UFF. It is only pushiness and persecution. Any excuse that can be made to bash us is being done. UFF has no need to apologize for anything.

This post has been edited by dokimos0rg: 15 June 2006 - 06:11 PM

[Cspace]

UFF doesn't need to reform itself.

To make an impact though, and show why your idea works, I just think it should be done a little differently. Saying that all requirement clans are wrong is saying that 95% of all current clans are wrong... That is opposition no clan can physically handle, and while I know what you're saying with regards to certain clans, your true opposition is a much lower population. By alienating all of the requirement clans openly like this, one would not ever be capable of affecting them because UFF would in turn be treated as a joke. In effect, by alienating all of the requirement clans, you're making enemies with the same ones you wish to show a different side... And it is really hard to persuade someone who considers the persuader an enemy.

To make an impact should require something a little more positive, in my opinion. Instead of boasting how requirement clans are wrong, why not boast why UFF is right to not have requirements? I know that a ton of solid reasons exist for this that won't alienate anyone (heh, SeeD has been without requirements since 2001), and it could build up interest for UFF instead of create enemies. For actual progress to be made, in my opinion, it would be much more effective to show by example instead of create an argument with 95% of the Runescape world (many of whom are full of themselves and won't listen to anything regardless of how much sense it makes).

So by focusing on UFF instead of everyone else, UFF could grow and be an example. An example others could follow, and if mainstream, perhaps act as a place for everyone to go who doesn't want to be in a requirement clan. That 5% is a huge number, and if you could appeal to it, UFF would literally be a MAJOR player in the clan community if brought together. SeeD, being a non-req clan for more than four years, can be a help with this.

I am just concerned that the outward stance, which many would consider negative, is getting in the way of UFF reaching its goal. That's my opinion though.

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As for everyone else, this is not a Dokimos-bashing thread. Many have already expressed their disagreement with the goals, and all of the recent posts are sounding the same and aren't really contributing to anything. Let's calm down, he isn't hurting you with his views and should not be subjected to this.

[Baseballl]

I'm not forcing you to do anything, I'm providing a compromise that may benefit both sides. If you were to stop preaching the goals in every reply you make and stop blasting requirement clans, then people won't be upset with you. You aren't required to join their clan and they don't insult clans such as ours, so why are you entitled to insult them?

You are trying to say that SeeD has caused this fight, but the only way I see SeeD caused this was by allowing you here in the first place without ever consulting the members before it happened. I'm not king, but you aren't either. However, I AM telling you what is making people upset and you refusing to accept that is what voids this whole settlement. I'm telling you what is making the majority of SeeDs upset. If you would understand that then we could probably debate in a more understanding manner, no just repeating back and forth what has already been said. We know your damn values and now you know why we are upset, lets put those aside and come to an agreement. We won't settle for you telling us to get out of your forum. We will settle when you begin to understand that pushing your ideals and insulting clans of which some SeeDs are a part of it is NOT the way to handle yourself here. SeeDs won't cause you problems when you stop with your behavior. Stop acting like a child and listen to what I'm saying. I'm telling you what you can possibly do to correct this, so why don't you listen and understand?

[Skyone]

So Dokimos, training to level 10, 20, or even 30 is hard?

[Neilslayer91]

We're not talking about how difficult it is to have requirements, just the fact of having em.

[Cspace]

None of this is constructive for SeeD nor UFF. It is only pushiness and persecution. Any excuse that can be made to bash us is being done. UFF has no need to apologize for anything.

Dokimos is right, and people need to stop doing this. It is the same few every time.

There are ways to talk about this without forcing Dokimos to defend himself.

This is really stupid, and I wish people would look at this thread and see what is happening. It is a little disgusting how people who told me, yesterday, that they would stop with this, are suddenly at it again a day later.

[dokimos0rg]

A key reason why UFF doesn't drop its message that speaks against exclusive clanning is because others will not drop their message against us.

UFF is often treated as a mere "training clan" by the exclusive clans, wherein they will seek to recruit from us our higher level players. They do this by calling us a bunch of "noobs" and that they are better.

We are not the ones who start the put downs. We are only responding to them.

Sorry that the solution to this is not that simple, Cspace.

[Neilslayer91]

Everyone, UFF and SeeD, need to drop the subject entirely thats the best way to end it.

[Nate]

Exactly our point Neils, Drop every thing about req clans!.

[Skyone]

Yea, but Dokimos just doesn't get that even having a tiny bit of a requirement would knock some sence to peoples minds on to not being lazy. Then Dokimos says that he will change Runescape, you will change Runescape by turning players in to mindless lazy bumbs that can't work to meat their goal. Sometimes if you want something...you've got to work hard in order to get it. Do you know what I mean Dok?