[Cspace]

I'm just wondering, what do some older RS players think involving changes in how RS clans are perceived? Like, how they were a few years ago, and how they are now?

I just wish the general RS community would once again see that a clan doesn't need to be either dedicated to PKing or dedicated to skills. A few years ago before the 'top 10 clan' fiasco anyone who saw clans in such a black-and-white manner would be viewed as single minded. Now many are trying to copy a few successful PKing clans and it has dramatically changed the outlook on clans as a whole.

I keep hearing how clans are either "PKing clans" or "Skill clans" from players who started playing more recently or who have reached a high level. Don't hear it much from those who started before 2003, but now it is almost like players are missing something in blindly categorizing clans. I have heard many times that if a clan is not a 'PKing clan', it is a 'Skill clan'. That's as narrow-minded as saying that either you like pizza or you are a health nut. Why is it that the very basis of a clan must rely on the mere distribution of numbers, and every clan must fall into one of two nebulous categories?

Since when does a "PKing clan" always relate to war, and a "Skill clan" always relate to 'n00bs'? Realistically speaking, what does "Skill clan" even mean? And why are categories necessary? Where is the creativity and identity, beyond a simple name?

Skill-Based Clan: This is probably one of the most specialized types of clans. Some examples are mining and fishing clans, where everyone works together at a specific skill. Some advantages to these types of clans are that they can be somewhat effective in raising everyone's levels, can be easier to organize, and everyone usually has a common goal in Runescape (therefore less conflict among members). Some disadvantages, though, are that the clan may not be very fun to be a part of (depends on how specialized it is), most likely would be harder to recruit for, and it isn't very likely to become well-known.

PKing Clan: This is one of the most popular types of clans, often based completely on the wilderness and PKing (yep, you guessed it). Some advantages to these include an ease of recruiting, usually are fun to be a part of, can become well-known, and everyone often feels like a member. The main disadvantages are that it can take time from other skills (depending on how often members are in the wilderness), can take more time from the leader than skill-based clans, and there can be problems if members lose expensive items/armor (the clan sometimes is held responsible for the loss, and the member sometimes may demand help to recover the equipment).

An Everything Clan: This is what SeeD is based on, and is the most broad of all the types of clans. These are usually based on everyone's strengths regarding skills, and are designed to enhance the game for all who join. The main advantages are an ease in recruiting, everyone's generally happy being in the clan, it can become fairly well-known after a while, and you aren't confined to a certain aspect of Runescape. The main disadvantages are that it can become hard to lead (more than one leader is recommended) and it can be very expensive to run if there are enough members.

Fan-Based Clan: These are probably one of the easiest to lead, but usually have the fewest rewards. An example would be a "Star Wars Clan" or something like that. Some advantages are that everyone has the same interest, everyone can get to know each other, and it can often be fun (parties and events are often major parts of this type of clan). The main disadvantages are that time is taken from other parts of the game, there isn't much purpose in Runescape (regarding skills and quests), and it isn't likely to become well known.

That was a piece of a clan guide I wrote in early 2003 (I think that's when). Many agreed to that, and also agreed to the idea that every clan doesn't fit into a category. Categories were more viewed as templates back then, and now they are viewed more as a clan's embodiment.

Back before the 'Top 10 Clan' thing everything was more realistic. "PKing clan" didn't groundlessly insinuate "War clan", "Skill clan" wasn't a pile of non-PKing clans but actually had something to do with skills, and there was gray area in-between everything where any clan could create its own identity and purpose which could be accepted.

The mere fact that the 'Top 10 Clan List' isn't rightfully titled 'Top 10 Warring Clan Leaderboard', so many are reaching what was once a really high level and now feel superior, new players are commonly being mocked and treated as lesser in more than just stats, and with so many players reaching high levels many elitist clans exploded... It's just changing the way clans are viewed in Runescape.

In a way I feel bad for new clans starting up now, because it has become very difficult to make a unique clan with everyone trying to pile them into some nebulous category to force them into the background.

I know that some are just looking at it as words, but it is more than that. Unless you really were in the realm of clans since 2001 or 2002, you probably wouldn't see it. For all or most of our original members, what's going on now probably just seems pointless, and for some reason everyone is buying into it even if they say they aren't. There is little experimentation anymore, and clans can no longer classify themselves.

I've heard many say that SeeD is a 'Skill Clan', but what about our clan really puts us in that category? I've also heard that we are against PKing from many players. For others who don't know what we do or just want to promote their own clans, we are nothing more than a community. But that is how people would put a clan like ours now, even though we have not changed much in terms of what we do since we formed. An emphasis on community doesn't mean we lack a clan. An emphasis against certain wars doesn't mean we're against PKing. An emphasis on events doesn't mean we're a 'Skill Clan'.

While this really isn't hurting SeeD all that much, the same is happening to other clans. While we are established and can survive and grow, a clan like ours would be very difficult to start now... While there were many back around 2001-2003, they've for the most part vanished, and since we are one of the last ones who classify ourselves as we do we are perhaps one of the last old-style clans in a way.

I just wish there were some way to set things straight again. Even though I am not as able to be as active in the game anymore, it still hurts me a little to see what's happening. ... If you were on RS and active in the clan realm before 2003, what do you think? If you are a more recent player.. what do you see in the situation now?

I know this is just me ranting, but it has been bugging me for a while.

[Jake]

a while back i loked at the clan recruiting part of the rs forums(i know... its horrible there)
and all i saw were "leaders" that seemed to me like little kids on a power trip trying to play the "big guy" while abusing what little power they had
and trying to act like their "clan" was an actual government (trying to act official and stuff...)
also they dont last more than a week

edit: ill go look at the rs forums...then cut and paste the FIRST clan thingy i see...

edit2: the clan thing is to dam long... go see your self

This post has been edited by Jake4d1: 30 August 2005 - 02:44 AM

[Final F8]

ok... I did have more typed out. But it didn't make much sense lol... I was basically saying I agreed with you. I gotta go now anyway, so I stick by my emote

[JGJTan]

I'll have to agree on what you've said in your post 'Spacey.

I'm not as old a Runescape player as many other people here since I only started Runescape during March 2003 however from my perspective, things have definitely changed from the way they used to be. People think that things generally have to go in one direction and one direction only. In this instance with your examples, either a "PKing Clan" or a "Skills Clan". It's sad to see how some things turn out.

But from my perspective, I think the PKing-type Clans are more those players who believe the game to be one versus the other and just focus on Combat. Now this can be good in many cases however it can also influence aggressive attitudes towards others if they may die as an example. Skill-based Clans on the other hand are at the very opposite end of the scale. They work towards Non-Combat based skills and are more the pacifists of the game. They are dedicated to their skills however can be looked down upon by all the PKing-based Clans. SeeD happens to be relatively in the middle of things however we are not necessarily strong in either halves compared to other "stronger" clans.

It's hard on those trying to start a clan I can guarantee that. You feel sorry for those who try to follow in the footsteps of the "greater" PKing Clans and you feel sorry for those who are shunned by others. Makes you miss RSC...

[Goto]

This is quite true, clans are viewed quite differently than they were 3-4 years ago.

While it's true that unique-ness and growth is being stifled by a determination to sort clans into categories, I think it's also fair to say that most clans are better organised than they were back then. A lot more clans these days have a website, forums or at least some thought put behind them, back in the earlier days of RS you'd see a lot of 'Hey lets make a clan' around the place. While this wasn't necessarily a bad thing, most didn't tend to last all that long.

[Cspace]

Skill-based Clans on the other hand are at the very opposite end of the scale. They work towards Non-Combat based skills and are more the pacifists of the game.

To many newer or elitist players though, any clan that isn't a PKing clan is being piled into the 'Skill Clan' category. It is basically like they're thinking a clan must revolve around some stat in the game, and if not combat, then it must be 'skills'. There used to be actual 'Skill Clans' that actually had something to do with the name, but now they are much fewer. On the contrary, however, many more are being considered 'Skill Clans' from the outside than before, even if they hardly have anything to really pertain to that category. All it's doing is pushing all clans into the background except warring PKing clans.

SeeD happens to be relatively in the middle of things however we are not necessarily strong in either halves compared to other "stronger" clans.

Back before 2003 there was a such thing as an 'everything clan', which is what we would be considered... however now many are trying to locate clans somewhere in a linear spectrum. It distorts a clan's purpose unless it happens to be either dedicated to PKing or 'skills' (whether falsely or not), because few realize nowadays that there can be more to a clan than either of them.

A clan can exist with one, both, or neither, and still technically be a clan and also be worthwhile to its members. Contrary to that, the majority of the clan community now only sees clans as one, some PKing clans as both, and a clan with 'neither' as simply not a clan.

While it's true that unique-ness and growth is being stifled by a determination to sort clans into categories, I think it's also fair to say that most clans are better organised than they were back then. A lot more clans these days have a website, forums or at least some thought put behind them, back in the earlier days of RS you'd see a lot of 'Hey lets make a clan' around the place. While this wasn't necessarily a bad thing, most didn't tend to last all that long.

The difference is that before anyone felt like they could start a clan, and now there are unofficial requirements for a leader to start one of any worth (such as combat, webmaster skills, etc.). The single-minded and sometimes blind categorization is doing nothing but eliminating a clan's ability to define itself, since a definition other than 'PKing clan' or 'Skill clan' would simply be shunned by everyone else and replaced by 'Skill clan' unless it attempts to prove itself in war.

Back a few years ago there weren't as many clan sites worth mention, but that was also before InvisionFree and basically any decent free forum service other than Ezboard. Back in 2001 there really weren't many decent free forum scripts anyway, for those who could host their own. InvisionBoard itself wasn't stable until 2002 if I remember. Also, there were not really any decent free hosts then, other than the basic Geocities, Angelfire, Spaceports, Tripod, and whatnot. No free hosts that I can remember allowed PHP or CGI. Heck, we even had a sad frames site back then.

It's just, I feel like clans have lost the openness that they once had. While not as many had the tools or whatnot to really make something impressive, at least everyone felt like they could start something, and many did. Many created clans that were really impressive in terms of creativity, and back then if someone started following in another clan's footsteps like they are now they would not have been taken seriously. Also, if a group of friends wanted to start a small loose clan, it was fully possible then and everyone wasn't trying to out-do them. I knew of clans with fewer than 10 members and no site that had a great time.

It wasn't necessarily friendlier then, but everyone was just more willing to accept other players' clans for what they were.

********************************************

(I'm not countering any of these quotes, I'm just adding to them or stating opinions of mine involving the same topics)

[Phorgot]

when i joined SeeD i was still a classic player, when majority played rs2... i made the transition and i liked rs2 better so i stayed, just like how people get use to things like pking and take it more seriously than anything else in rs

so some people might look down at skill clans when they themselves are in a pking clan and vice versa

[Pureblade]

Wow guys...I thought everyone here was a much older Runescape player than me. I started playing around 5 months after RS first came out (dont even try to ask me when it was, I can't remember). Back then, the concept of a 'clan' didn't exist. People joined with groups of friends they knew in rl.

After awhile, people decided that they wanted to form groups. These still weren't nearly what the clans today were...mostly, they were groups of four to ten people who hung out together and did stuff on RS.

I can't remember exactly when that changed, but I started seeing more clans where they required a 'tribute fee'. I joined a few of these, but none of them connected outside of RS, and none of the clan members that I knew about were ever online. By the time most of the bugs were out of the first RS, people started PKing more and more often. The wild wasn't a safe place to go, and friends would hunt in packs, stalking down other members in the wild.

Soon clans were forming based around a central military. They were able to put members of the clan into different parts of jobs, but it wasn't very organized at the time. Most of the clans turned into warring clans, and there was alot of fighting going on. After that, there was a long stretch where I quit RS. I didn't get back on for almost a year, and when I did I found clans based on themes. There were undead clans, faerie clans, dragon clans, ect. where all the members wore a certain type of outfit that matched their theme.

After that more specialty clans started showing up, where members were devoted to getting a single job done. However, once members in the clan got to their goal level, there was no point for them to continue. They quit after that and went their own way. I quit again for a LONG time...can't remember exactly how long, but when I got back it was a few months before RS2 came out. I played for awhile, but I got tired of the pompous jerks that were leading so many clans now, and the whole game itself got a little tiring. I quit...and here I am today. I'm not familiar with recent clans and how they act, but the older clans were basically good for certain people. Only a few (like SeeD) welcome everyone, but most of these 'everyone clans' have alot of members and very little activity as a group inside RS.

Anyways, thats just my opinion on stuff, and my point of view.

[SlainThrax-]

when i started rs in mid 2000 (yes been playing for nearly 6 years now ) clans were more overall and community based then they are now. most clans now are just pk and are ridiculasly annoying to be a part of sometimes..

[Cspace]

so some people might look down at skill clans when they themselves are in a pking clan and vice versa

The want for superiority isn't necessarily any different now than before. The problem is that the categories you mentioned ('Skill Clans' and 'PKing Clans') are now commonly considered the only two types of clans. Basically a clan is either a warring PKing clan, or it is blindly thrown into the 'skill clan' pile and pushed into the background. It is making it very difficult for clans to define themselves.

The problem isn't necessarily the elitism as much, but there is just a very finite outlook on clans now. Players look at 'PKing clans' and 'skill clans' as the primary clan types and new clans are buying into it. I just keep hearing each thrown around, and even though they are just words, the idea (among other changes that came with it) is ruining the spirit of the clan community.

I actually blame this on some of the popular RS tip sites and communities, for many have been indirectly promoting the polarization of the clan community. With the 'Top 10 Clan List' not being properly labeled as a warring clan leaderboard, for example, it enforces the idea that a clan is nothing if it doesn't prove itself in some battle because that's how the high leveled players would take it. A few PKing clans also helped to start the whole thing. With the player community getting older, more and more are reaching what would previously be viewed as really high levels. With so many reaching 90+, many are wanting to flaunt their power. Clans with really high requirements then explode with activity in not much time as a result, and PKing clans always tend to be louder. As a result, these quick successes got everyone's attention, while they change the outlook of clans to one that belittles clans that don't focus on war.

RS isn't really geared toward wars, but the clan community is just creating their own means of artificial battles and making the entire glory of a clan based on it. Instead of calling all other clans non-warring clans, they throw around the simpler and more specific-sounding term of 'skill clan', even if it has little focus on skills themselves.

I mean, how many actual skill clans are there? How many clans label themselves as mining clans, or fishing clans, or actually focus on events devoted to non-combat stats? Not many at all. There is no reason for the term to be thrown around so blindly.

***************************************************

PKing Clans should be just that... Clans that simply focus on PKing.

Warring Clans should be the term for most of the current "PKing clans". This would include any clan that is devoted to war.

Skill Clans should only be a label for clans that specifically focus on non-combat skills.

"Everything Clans" should be the name for what is sometimes either labeled "Community Clans" or blindly as "Skill Clans", which don't have any specific focus but really do a bit of everything.

Fan-Based Clans (or some similar or more specific title) should be the name for a clan with no specific focus in Runescape itself but has some other artificial basis.

Party Clans (or some similar or more specific title) should be a term for clans with no skill-related purpose.

Module Clans (or some similar or more specific title) should be a term for clans based on sub-clans of differing focuses. I haven't seen any recently, but they could still be out there.

- And it should be accepted that clans can exist and succeed that have their own purpose contrary to any of the above -

[Daryl C]

I agree with you....clans are no longer looked at the same way that they used to be looked at.

[Darkness]

back in the earlier days of RS you'd see a lot of 'Hey lets make a clan' around the place.

Then again, isn't that how anything was started? Like, Cspace said, "Hey! Let's make a clan to get back at those trees!"

I started Runescape in late '02, and as was said by others, they are better organized now, but... I prefer how they were. Generalizations truely annoy me, like for example at my school, you are automatically classified into one or another clique. There are the jocks, the nerds, the skaters, the bullies, the 'blahs', and an assorted number of others. You are immediately classified into a group, and that almost decides who your friends can be. The 'blahs' are the people who are from random groups, or are in the middle of 'nerd' and 'jock'. Like me Wait... What was the point of this post...

Ah, yes. Now, all clans are immediately generalized into one clan group or another, and as Cspace said, this is starting to snuff out uniqueness. It stinks. A lot. Soon, all forums will be the same (except SeeD, since we'll be well on our way to world domination ), and everyone will come to SeeD just because it's the most unique place on the web

[Res]

I don't agree that more clans are more organized now. If you consider every level 4 that wants to make a clan for people to give him stuff an actual "clan"...

Even if you don't factor that in, RSC clans had alot less to have their mind on. Skill based, PKing, anything.

Skill Based: They didn't have the random events to worry about. This was when autominers/fishers were used more. (Not talked about, though.) Less to distract them from getting their work done. Do this, that, gain a level, I can do this now.
Plus, in RSC the world was smaller. At least.. This was my view on the think when I was in one.

PKing clans: Just memorize the names of the people on your team. That's pretty much all you had to do. No multi-combat zones, So rangers and mages could let loose on any single unsuspecting sap. Also, with the "No retreat" fix-um, it made it quick and easy.

With RS2, you have alot more to worry about. Random events, stamina, defense points and attack points in different areas, multi-combat zones and so-on.
-------

So, while not being as complicated, they did work a bit better and a good number of them got off to better and easier starts than most RS2 Clans. Since now it's hard to exchange information to actually join a clan.. And even after you give the website out, it's still a longshot before you actually get up off the ground. Like this place.

Sorry.. I've had a long break and I had to get some typing out of my system.

[Cspace]

As for whether or not clans are more complex or organized now, I really don't think there is a difference. Back around when SeeD started there were small groups who just did stuff spontaneously (if at all) who considered themselves clans, and at the same time there were some clans with the most complex and organized systems you'd ever think would be possible around Runescape. Neither would make the ideal clan, but the spectrum existed then as it does now.

I think the main difference in clans is InvisionFree, lol. Makes it easy to start up a clan site that actually works and for its members to discuss matters. There are a ton of RS clans on InvisionFree now, as opposed to a ton of clans wrestling with Angelfire or Geocities a bit ago. Not necessarily any differing ambitions, organization, complexity, or lesser clan leadership, just wasn't as easy for a clan to get into the open and show its stuff on the web.

With the RS communities though, in conjunction with InvisionFree and the rising number of high leveled players, "PKing" [warring] clans are in the spotlight. It is possible for a clan to start with nothing but an InvisionFree board and end up with well over a hundred members in a month if it simply appears powerful on RSC (for example). Warring clans are naturally louder than others, since they base themselves on competition and their victories (what good are victories if you don't show everyone?). With so many large warring clans simply being who they are, everyone else is shoved into the background and basically categorized as inferior (to some) non-warring clans. Then the wrongly labeled 'Top 10 List' appears to make warring clans feel like they own the game, which doesn't help the atmosphere at all.

On top of this, RS made it really difficult to promote clans in-game. This means that the vast majority of recruiting is happening on these runescape communities, which only exposes more of RS to what is happening there.

As a result new players are being ridiculed, new clans of differing purposes are very difficult to get off the ground, old players are reaching very high levels and are often acting as superiors, and 'PKing' [warring] clans are acting as magnets to everyone who is now wishing to flaunt his/her power. On top of that, the polarization of clans between 'skills' and 'PKing' (and wrongly so) has made many players who started during or after 2003 see little in clans other than numbers (both stats and member count). Due to all this the whole clan situation is now a monotonous and predictable artificial power struggle between clones.

I don't have anything against warring clans, I just wish the clan community would become more balanced like it once was, and I wish it would allow clans to define themselves once again.

[Bodom]

(Got linked to this)

My opinion: Pkings fun, warrings fun, people like to join clans based on ranks, you cant prove your ranks with who can play hide and seek the longest or cape tag.

Warring is fun to do and can show clan power.

Id rather war and pk than run around playing cape tag and having "crazy randomness"